This blog is dedicated to the memory of David Weintraub, who took on insidious astroturfers and won.

Monday, February 22, 2010

Can Kathleen Sullivan Be Saved?

On the Not Believable blog entry, Kathleen Sullivan arrived in the comments. I then went googling. In short, a few finds have inspired me to make another blog entry related to the satanic panic.

Can Kathleen be helped? I'm not so sure. She is as deluded as anyone I've ever heard about through the internet. I've asked her some direct questions. I doubt she'll stick around to answer them. I basically would like to know when she became aware of her alleged past, who was involved, from the cult to her therapists, that sort of stuff.

Let's take a looksie at some of her claims.


I've been tracking Michael Jackson via the news for about 10 years now. For reasons I will not get into in a public forum, I can state that I have absolutely no doubt that he's an MK-ULTRA variety slave, possibly introduced by his father into their bizarre "system" of spooks, commercialized pedophilia and more.

"My father introduced me to organized criminal pedophilia from early childhood on. Like Michael, I developed many altered states of consciousness to cope with the horrors I experienced and encountered. "I also have no doubt that he would have been terribly abused as a child, even if he hadn't "allegedly" been given to others as a child to sexually service them. There's no other explanation for his obsession with being with children, in public and privately - especially in bed!
link


In the earlier part of my recovery, many flashes and pieces of memory emerged that I believed must have come from my imagination, or perhaps from old movies. This belief came from my need to protect myself from emerging awarenesses that were still too upsetting. I mentally put such memories “on the shelf” and did not make a judgment about them one way or the other. Since I began my recovery in 1989, I’ve been amazed at how many of those “shelved” memories have been verified – in any number of practical ways....

I met an outspoken government mind control survivor, Cathy O'Brien, whose common-law husband advised me to read some materials that Cathy had written about her experiences. I only read one of those articles, in which she had written about a bizarre, very specific sexual act that she had allegedly performed for a certain politician. Although I had independently been remembering that same politician, I still had blank spots in my memory concerning him. Because of this, I inadvertently adopted some of the details of Cathy's story and ended up with a garbled memory about an encounter with the politician that never felt real. Unfortunately the details of her story were so mixed up with an emerging memory of the politician that I still am unable to separate them back out. I call this a “memory scramble." Like scrambling two eggs together, it is nearly impossible, once the amnesic gap is filled with external information, to "unscramble" the pure memory from the gap filler....

My personal belief, based on information I have received from several private investigators, is that the CIA and other intelligence agencies have worked hand-in-hand with NASA, and some of its employees and departments, to further mind-control experimentation. Although some of NASA’s programs are certainly legitimate, including space exploration, I believe that NASA is involved in much more than that, and that NASA has been used to hide certain activities within its own organizational borders. I believe this has been a shell game, in that - when the CIA was investigated – certain records and activities were simply moved to a cooperative sister agency, which enabled CIA spokespersons to speak truthfully when they claimed that the MKULTRA type experiments had been discontinued! As one spook, who confirmed my theory, would often say: same old same old....

1. One of my black op handlers was a PsyOps expert/lawsuit-happy “Satanist”/flaming pedophile mentioned in the book. That person later participated in revictimizing and terrorizing me during a group assault in 1997, after I had gone public during an interview as part of the CKLN radio series on mind control.

2. Although I have no memory of ever going to Boys Town, my maternal grandfather, who claimed to be OSS/CIA and was instrumental in involving me as a child in MKULTRA and beyond, took his annual “vacations” at Boys Town and often sent donations to them. I always thought it was strange that he went there for vacation; and I especially thought it strange that he sent them money, given that he was a very stingy and selfish man. Knowing what I know now, it makes sense - he was a pedophile.

3. A certain former, very high-ranking politician who also was connected in the past to the CIA was one of my primary “owners.” I performed a number of illegal activities for him, including assassinations. I also unfortunately couriered children, by air, to D.C. so that he could have at them. The children were instructed to call me “Aunt.” That politician was also a flaming pedophile and probably still is. It is definitely not in my best interest to publicly name him during this current political climate. Although he now keeps a lower profile, I still consider him to be an extremely dangerous.

4. I met and had some dealings with two former CIA Directors mentioned in the book. One Director was total pond scum. An especially secretive pedophile, he personally “gave” me as a “butterfly” for #3’s “collection” when I was an older teenager (this was probably an allusion to the code name for their mind-control slavery operation, “Project Monarch”) The other Director was refreshingly honest and I sincerely admired him. Although he knew what was going on, but never seemed happy about it. Unfortunately, he was later terminated....

6. I was introduced to another very high-ranking politician who was mentioned in the book, albeit not as a perpetrator. The person who presented my free services to that man, who had just entered office, was a very corrupt, former high-ranking politician. The potential recipient had the moral rectitude to reject my services as a free assassin, but appeared to be compromised later by another sent-in slave whose training was more to his tastes.

7. My father, who was my primary mental programmer and tormentor, was big into the teachings and practices of Aleister Crowley. Dad incorporated them into his extremely gory, murderous occult rituals – particularly in the 60’s....

Having been tortured and much more for decades by numerous sadistic individuals who have worked for and/or have been contracted by certain U.S. government agencies, I have had to work very hard not paint our entire federal government with a broad black brush. In reality, certain individuals, and groups of individuals, had specific personal agendas that other employees were unaware of. I have remembered that some of the people who participated in what was done to me and other children as part of MKULTRA experiments exhibited facial and body expressions that indicated that they were very uncomfortable about what was being done to us....
link

DAD WASNT A MURDERER; HE DID THE WORLD A FAVOR BY TAKING OUT THE TRASH JUST RELEASED BY DANDELION BOOKS: UNSHACKLED: A SURVIVORS STORY OF MIND CONTROL, BY KATHLEEN SULLIVAN


In UNSHACKLED: A SURVIVORS STORY OF MIND CONTROL, Sullivan delivers a first-hand account of her experiences as part of an underground criminal network that includes Intelligence personnel, military personnel, doctors and mental health professionals contracted by the military and the CIA, criminal cult leaders and members, pedophiles, pornographers, drug dealers and Nazis.

Dandelion Books
www.dandelionbooks.net
Contact: Carol Adler
cadler@dandelionbooks.net
Tel: 480-897-4452
Fax 480-452-1580

TEMPE, AZ . . . Kathleen Sullivan was once an assassin and human guinea pig for satanic rituals and experiments." A victim of mind control from childhood, until recently, when vivid flashbacks and nightmares started to leak the horrible truth, Sullivan had no recollection of any of these activities.

In UNSHACKLED: A SURVIVORS STORY OF MIND CONTROL, Sullivan delivers a first-hand account of her experiences as part of an underground criminal network that includes Intelligence personnel, military personnel, doctors and mental health professionals contracted by the military and the CIA, criminal cult leaders and members, pedophiles, pornographers, drug dealers and Nazis.

This network included her own father, who brutalized his daughter for years and even forced her to kill her own infant child.

UNSHACKLED [ISBN 1-893302-35-0], just released by Dandelion Books, is available online through www.dandelionbooks.net/books.html#sullivan with toll free ordering at 1-800-861-7899. It is also available in bookstores worldwide.

This is not a book for weak stomachs-nor should it be read by those who are afraid to face the truth because it might hurt," states Dandelion president, Carol Adler.

Like the Mafia, the rules and mores of this criminalized, networked subculture are drastically different from the rules and mores of normal" society. Im not an exhibitionist," writes Kathleen. I value my privacy. And yet, I believe my story needs to be told so that more people will understand how 'Manchurian Candidate style mind-control techniques can create alter-states in the minds of unwitting victims, causing them to perform deeds that are normally repugnant."

"There have been many books written about MKULTRA and its victims," writes Gordon Thomas, best-selling author of JOURNEY INTO MADNESS, one of the first books ever written about mind control and MKULTRA, but nothing quite like the impact that UNSHACKLED will make on your psyche. It is written from not only the heart but from the inside.

Here is what it was REALLY like to have been the victim of the grossest abuse committed by any American government," states Thomas. The indictment in these pages is a Paean to survival and a wake-up call. It MUST be read. And its stunning revelations must be acted upon--NOW."

Sullivan was a product of three generations of inbred mind control.

Dad couldnt see himself as who and what he really was," writes Sullivan. Hed constructed an immense nearly impenetrable mental wall behind him. Behind it was the pain of his having been abused and betrayed as a child.

In front stood the part of Dad that had secretly operated in the criminal world. This adult part had dumped is guilt onto me, his small victim, because he was unwilling to recognize that he was a murderer and a pedophile.

Dad had lied to himself most of all. In his fantasy world, he wasnt a child molester; he expressed his love for children by having sex with them.

He wasnt a murderer; he had to 'teach a lesson when he believed that adult cult members had betrayed him. He wasnt a murderer when he slaughtered 'disposable infants on altars-hed need their life-force to survive.

Hed tortured and sometimes killed children for being weak, with the justification that only the strong should survive. Hed raped and sometimes killed women because 'women always get you in the end.

Hed killed 'street bums because they were worthless and caused problems. He wasnt a murderer; he did the world a favor by taking out the trash."

link

By the way, Carol Adler has been directly tied to PMC4 LLC and Michael Rivero of Holocaust denying infamy.

I'm kind of all blogged out and apologise for this mostly having been a copy and paste job. I did find a very interesting link through googling Kathleen, tough to expect when most of the results are garbage links. There's a cute website called Awful Library Books, and Kathleen showed up on one if its threads. The book in question at the following links is called Don’t Make Me Go Back, Mommy: A child’s book about satanic ritual abuse Sanford & Evans 1990. It's quite disgusting. I guess it's a primer for younger people acting as an aid to implanting false memories. Here are the links. It was a two-parter. I'll finish off this sorry blogging effort by putting up the few illustrated excerpts scanned by the librarians.

Satan for Kids
Satan for Kids, Part 2

WARNING: Looking at these images may trigger feelings of disgust concerning creepy "therapists" such as Colin Ross.












34 comments:

bob said...

Kathleen Sullivan is simply a bald-faced liar. I don't think she's even genuinely delusional or really believes her own BS.

Like most of these fraudulent mind-control/extreme abuse "victims", Sullivan claims to have personally been of supreme importance to the alleged "secret, pedophile/satanist/intelligence agent/corporate billionaire rulers of the world". The content of her claims may seem very negative - i.e. suffering constant, extreme abuse - but really she is bragging. She is bragging that she is perhaps the most abused human on the planet, but also in possession of very dangerous secrets, and that both the abuse and the secrets make her a Very Important Person. It's all an ego-trip.

What really disgusts me, is the attempts by these con artists to bill themselves as ultimate anti-corporate, anti-government truth-seeking "revolutionaries", who can (and should be given the chance to) lead the oppressed & secretly enslaved masses to freedom. It enrages me that people like Jeff Wells go along with this kind of crap and even promote it.

Kathleen Sullivan and Cathy O'Brien leading "the people's revolt"? It all makes me want to puke.

socrates said...

Hi Bob,

I definitely can empathise with your feelings of disgust. A lot of these people could very well be outright liars and scammers.

Nonetheless, those women could fall into the Susan Polk category. Deluded by reasons of insanity and from being manipulated by authority figures in the form of quack therapists.

I definitely do believe you've the right to your opinion. That it's not far-fetched.

Hal Pepinsky probably did a hit and run visit to this website. I'd like to ask him what he thinks of Kathleen's story. He is on the Board of that group she runs. Does he really believe she was a manchurian styled assassin? Where's the proof? I want names and details with facts, even though I'm quite sure they don't exist. Just look at the claims made about Sid Siemer. Where's the proof?

Michael Jackson was an MK Ultra sex slave? Bob Hope was in on it? There's just no way.

I guess there isn't anything real to the idea of multiple personality disorder. Am I correct now on that? It seems to have been invented alongside the satanic panic. Not sure.

Brice Taylor, for sure, she sounds like a con artist. I kind of think Kathleen might have talked herself into believing these things. Like Project Willow at the RI forum.

I mean, look at Roseanne. There doesn't seem to be any monetary gain she can make by emigrating to Kookistan. She must believe it. Colin Ross appears to have been the one who messed her up. At least recently. Lowell Routley probably believes it, with the incentive of making money and a name for himself. The Italian prosecutor against Amanda Knox appears to be sincere in his kookiness. Last year I took a peak at the Church of Latter Day Saints. A lot of people believe the craziest junk imaginable.

Jeff Wells. Hmmm. I sense a bit of insincerity with his schick. Instead of prying real details out of Sullivan, he was asking her crap about paranormal whatever. Maybe that's because he knows that Kathleen Sullivan published a science fiction nightmare in her own head. Is she an actress or mentally ill? What was up with Felix Polk?

Thanks for posting.

bob said...

Socrates,

I'm old-school on this. I've been watching this play out since 1986. I participated in researching & exposing original frauds such as "Dr Rebecca Brown" aka Ruth Bailey, "Lauren Stratford" aka Laurel Rose Wilson, and Mike Warnke. Likewise fraudulent "experts" and "therapists" from Bennett Braun and Catherine Gould to Lyle Rapacki, Jerry Simandl and Dale Griffis.

Multiple Personality is a very old concept. One of the earliest case histories I've found was "The Doris Case of Multiple Personality" by Walter F Prince and James Hyslop, Proceedings of the American Society of Psychical Research, 1915-1917. In that case, a girl named Doris Fischer supposedly developed five distinct personalities.

At that time, the trendy subject of the day was "spiritism", and that is the explanation the authors favored for the phenomenon of Doris - that she was possessed by five spirits of deceased people!

You are right, certainly, that it is hard to know where delusional thinking ends and deliberate con-artistry begins. What I'm trying to point out, though, is that there can be motivations for the kinds of absurd claims Sullivan makes beyond monetary profit or mental illness. Simply feeling special, superior and a member of an elite community can be very powerful motivation for lying about one's history.

socrates said...

Thanks Bob for those names and a bit of history on the concept of multiple personality disorder. So there you have it. That psychiatric term appears to have been formed out of superstition.

I'd heard of Braun through googling. There is definitely a reservoir of info out there, if people can hone their search skills. It looks like Corydon Hammond quit this nonsense, once the lawsuits started pouring in.

Wouldn't it be special [/Church Lady] if someone could get through to Roseanne, and then she starts a crusade to have Colin Ross lose his license? I'm shocked he's still allowed to be a psychiatrist.

Roseanne could sue him, go back on Larry King Live and expose these buggers. Maybe I'm dreaming.

Imho, you are providing me with more reasons to believe this sra-mc crowd is a form of cult. The "survivors" are programmed into believing they are being heroic. They finally have a group to reinforce their fantasies. The in-group may have been the ones who introduced them to these ideas, or perhaps they heard of it through the grapevine and then joined up. The latter would explain the one or two sra-mc cases a good number of therapists reported seeing in that 1991 survey. The 16 therapists having over 100 cases is troubling. That is a low estimate too, as that study mentioned in the other thread is from many years ago. I wish an intrepid reporter would bust this story wide open. I asked one about it. She had covered the Susan Polk case a long time ago. She said she'd get back to me. Never did. The news station in Iowa never returned my email dropping a dime on Lowell Routley. It's difficult not to believe that people stink. But back to your point, yes, these "survivors" ended up in a system or cult by which they are given incentives by which to become even more deluded.

So yes, regardless of the question of whether these people are insane or grifting, there appears to be an incentive system in place promoting the maintenance of the overall hoax.

Thank you very much for providing leads for anyone interested in pursuing this topic further. Good job.

Anonymous said...

Kathleen Sullivan has tremendous courage to tell her story to others and to help others. She is humble and works hard to educate people about the realities of the world. There are no delusions when people talk about cult abuse. It happens in many places. The only payoff for going public as a cult victim is to educate others to stop it.

bob said...

Anonymous,

I've encountered dozens of fraudulent testimonial-ists over the years. There is a particular type that many of them fall under. These are "people on a mission"; they believe they have a calling to "increase public awareness" about a particular social issue or problem - drug abuse, teen promiscuity, physical abuse of children, sexual abuse of children, abusive cults, death cults, satanic cults etc.

The subject matter of their concerns vary, what they have in common is that they never actually experienced the topic/problem in their own lives. They may have led troubled lives, but the specific focus of their 'evangelism' was not one of those. However, they know or imagine that there are people who have been victimized through the topic of their concern, and those true victims largely remain nameless, faceless, and voiceless to the public. So, these frauds pretend to be a true victims of the topic in an attempt to "speak for" true victims.

They rationalize deliberately lying to others about their alleged victimization, by the belief that a "higher good" is being served through their deceptions, and this higher good absolves the 'wrongfulness' of lying. Often, but not always, the higher good is perceived to be: "doing God's work".

Kathleen Sullivan may be one of these "on a mission" frauds, and truly believe that through her own falsehoods "others will be educated to stop Mind Control Ritual Abuse". If so, that motivation could be of greater importance to her than monetary gain, status or prestige.

But I don't think so. She doesn't actually "tell her story", she merely paints pictures with the factual details fogged out. Nevertheless, she clearly gets some kind of twisted status reward from alleging involvement with high profile, important, influential persons (even if she doesn't name them).

Sullivan went from being a fraudulent abuse claimant to a social worker generating more of her kind FOR PAY. So, being an Extreme Abuse claimant has directly advanced a career for her and paid off monetarily.

But it is her public leadership of the Extreme Abuse group, including leading marches in Washington DC, which undeniably demonstrate her lust for leadership power & status.

Anonymous said...

Kathleen Sullivan's story is true. She provides more than enough information to back this up. Her only motivation and the motivation of others to stop these crimes is to help others. She has no want or need for power at all. She makes no money from doing this.

socrates said...

Come on, anonymous. We're talking so-called recovered memories. She even admitted to jumbling O'Brien's story up with her own. Do you think any of this stuff is nonsense? Michael Jackson was an MKUltra sex slave? Brice Taylor was Bob Hope's sex slave? Who was Kathleen's dad? Is there any proof other than her word that such and such took place? And as Bob pointed out, she clearly makes income off of this. She is a social worker or something for mentally ill folks brainwashed into believing such delusions. We also have no way of knowing about donations. We do know that Colin Ross and Lowell Routley and probably many other "therapists" are making a lot of money off of this hoax. There are disinfo writers such as Constantine making money off of it. Bob also makes a good point that some of this goes beyond money, as in so-called survivors get a certain kick out of being part of this special group fighting against the satanic government pedophiles. There's Lynn Schirmer. She's making money off of her paintings. But there's also the status that people like Colin Ross give her as a "survivor."

Anonymous said...

Most social workers make very little money. How do you know that anyone else is making money off this? No one gets a kick out of this. Child abuse survivors work together to heal and expose perpetrators. There is no "kick" in doing this.

socrates said...

I see that guy Nick Bryant is trying to make money off of this hoax. In general, I bet it's those therapists who are the ones making the big bucks. There's also the Larouche Cult who has been spreading this crap. That 1991 study showed that 16 therapists accounted for nearly all of the claims. How come 16 therapists had seen over 100 of these cases at that time, while others had only had one or two clients claiming sra-mc abuse? And the vast majority of therapists in the study had seen none. Why were 16 therapists out of over 2,000 seeing most of those with this specific form of delusion?

Anonymous said...

You may want to really find out instead of guess if they are actually making money off of child abuse survivors living in poverty. You'll find out they make very little if any money.

That 1991 study mentioned that over 700 therapists saw one or two cases of ritual abuse. Almost one out of every three.

These crimes are real.

bob said...

"That 1991 study mentioned that over 700 therapists saw one or two cases of ritual abuse. Almost one out of every three".

That's why the term was "satanic PANIC". There was a 'social panic' taking place, with pandemic transmission of irrational fear about threats that did not actually exist.

700 therapists did not "see one or two cases of ritual abuse", they saw one or two persons who claimed to have had experiences which the patient or the therapist interpreted to describe "ritual abuse". Since NO patient's claims of that nature could be validated through objective evidence, counting such claimants as "cases of ritual abuse" is a form of fraudulence.

bob said...

Here are some examples that don't involve 'panic', of how socially pervasive memes can lead people to make claims which are false.

If 5000 people who have never met, living in 10 countries, claim that the Rev. Moon is the second-coming of Christ, does that make the claim a fact?

If 500000 preschool aged children who have never met, living in 20 countries, all claim that their home is invaded once a year by a 300 lb man in a red suit who breaks in thru the chimney and flies through the sky in a magic sleigh...does that mean this claimed experience must be true or even real?

Karen said...

There was no panic. This concept was made up by those belonging to organizations that defended accused and convicted child rapists. How can one prove the contagion of an idea? One would have to show that a person heard the idea and then believed it. This has never been done with the concept of panic in this case.

The 700 therapists were trained professionals, some with many years of experience. Trained professionals would know if the stories were true or not. The claim that there was no objective evidence is not true. In many cases there is objective evidence of these crimes. In the cases were the main evidence is eye witness accounts, this is still evidence.

What is fradulent is mislabeling all cases as false without evidence. There is no evidence of contagion. The idea of Moon as a prophet has been shown to be taught by the Unification Church. The concept of Santa Claus is taught by different cultures. There is NO evidence that child abuse crimes have been taught or promoted by others. The concept of panic in this case is a myth.

socrates said...

Karen, your problem is that the reader decides. You are trying to turn this into a debate similar to whether God exists or is there free will.

On another thread, myself and this dude the_last_name_left have been duking it out with Holocaust deniers. This guy David Dees refuses to look at extensive evidence showing approximately 6 million Jews were killed by Hitler and the Nazis. You are in the same predicament but flipped around. You have no proof of govt. sponsored sra and mc crimes. You might as well be arguing for the existence of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

For example, though this is somewhat off-topic, there were no underground tunnels found at the McMartin Preschool. What was found was a map with turtle shells on it pretty much exposing the hoax. Kee MacFarlane and many others were thoroughly disgraced.

Why don't we see Corydon Hammond still talking his nonsense about a Dr. Green? Why has he stopped participating as a therapist with these cases? It's because lawsuits were successfully brought forth, and these buggers, those 16 or whatever therapists were being taken to task. How come of those 700 therapists who only saw one or two cases, Why didn't some see 15 or 5 or 22, why just the odd case?

I'd like to know what your dog is in this hunt. Are you a "survivor" or relative of one? Or a therapist? Are you just going by what you've read on the internet? I predict this. At some point Colin Ross is going to get exposed in the worst way possible. He could end up in jail. Or he could lose all his money. Someone needs to put a stop to that man. If anyone's suffering demons, it's him and his deluded sycophants.

bob said...

karen said:
"There was no panic. This concept was made up by those belonging to organizations that defended accused and convicted child rapists".

Yes, there was a genuine social panic. That has been validated by sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists, clergy from affected religious communities, law enforcement, etc.

Your oblique reference to FMSF, which you blame for "making up" the "concept" of a panic, is a tactic that is already tired and lame - and your assertion is simply wrong. The False Memory Syndrome Foundation came into existence in 1992. I was personally aware of a developing panic in 1985. [I was a bookstore owner at that time. For the record, I do not have and have never had any contact with FMSF].

By 1987 I was networking with academics in sociology, psychology, media studies and religious studies, as well as friends, relatives, co-religionists and various types of hobbyists, all of whom were concerned that a social panic was underway in North America. Soon after, I was approached by local law enforcement and recruited as an unpaid, volunteer advisor on the subject. These officers also shared concerns about their perceptions of a social panic. No, FMSF did not make up the concept of a Satanic Panic - although the term itself was coined by an academic who sits on their Board of Directors.

"The 700 therapists were trained professionals, some with many years of experience. Trained professionals would know if the stories were true or not".

Nonsense! I have letters here, from psychiatrists and various other kinds of "therapists" including the regional head of psych services in my area, whom I wrote to whenever such persons were quoted in the media as professing to be treating SRA victims or commenting on the subject. I made a point of writing them and asking them what research they had conducted, and what concrete verification they had found, for their patient's allegations. All of their replies are variations on the themes of;
"we don't conduct investigations, that's the role of police", or "often, we cannot be certain that patients are being truthful or accurate in what they relate to us. it is more important that they feel we trust them and are willing to believe them".

No, "trained professionals" cannot know if a patient's stories are true without corroborating verifications. Most therapists are less concerned with truth of patient's life histories than with treatment of symptoms, in any case.

"In many cases there is objective evidence of these crimes. In the cases were the main evidence is eye witness accounts, this is still evidence".

There may be objective evidence that people suffered abuse, or other commonplace criminal acts, but there is no objective evidence for multi-generational, child-sacrificing, mind-controlling satanic cults. Uncorroborated "eye witness" acounts are not evidence, they are conjecture.

"There is NO evidence that child abuse crimes have been taught or promoted by others".

Are you talking about child abuse generically or about SRA specifically? The existence of persons, organizations and social networks that evangelized the idea of SRA (and SRA crimes) through mass media, seminars, conferences, workshops, church groups, parent's groups, and yes even "survivor" groups, is a solidly documented fact. Would you like me to list some of these?

bob said...

Socrates,

Sorry to have become such a presence in these comment sections, and thank you for allowing me to vent & rant.

I can see that I'm going to have to start a website, to counter the revisionist 'history' of the Satanic Panic which SMART is peddling. I had hoped that I could 'retire' from this topic - I've grown quite tired of it after 20+ years - but it seems there is work still to be done.

I was very happy and pleased to read your pieces on this topic. It is comforting to know that there are others, like yourself, who are not fooled by the Mind Control/SRA con artists and have the cajones to speak out as you have here. I hope you will do more work in this area.

You've probably seen this article on Kyle Zirpolo, the McMartin recanter. I think it is a particularly important expose, of how some children were manipulated and pressured into knowingly lying about abuse that they never experienced.

The tragedy of child abuse in our society is very real, of course, but no true victims are helped by fraudulent abuse claims.

bob said...

Kyle Zirpolo

http://www.freejesse.net/LATimes/Introduction.htm

Alexandra said...

Heard that Hammond was threatened and backed off. He is still doing good research in the field of memory and law. Ross is still practicing medicine. If any of the accusations against him were true, he would have lost his license long ago. The concept of "panic" was never validated. The concept in this case was created by those with an interest in discrediting child abuse victims, created by those defending accused child abusers.

Bob makes a lot of statements without any proof. He states he has letters, etc. but we don't even know who he is. Therapists can tell the veracity of their client's statements, especially if the clients are repeatedly harassed by cult and family members, have scars that verify their stories, have siblings that have identical stories, have confessions from perpetrators and have symptoms that fit their stories.

Criminal cases with convictions that have been upheld with evidence of cult and ritual abuse crimes are evidence. There is no evidence that one can somehow mysteriously get a trauma memory into their mind through a brief seminar or by reading a media article.

Tunnels were found at McMartin. Articles like The Dark Tunnels of McMartin by Summit and the actual archeological study of the tunnel at http://web.archive.org/web/20010123212200/members.cruzio.com/~ratf/McMartin.html/ prove the tunnels existed.

The New York Times stated in 1985 that prosecutors would present 41 children from the school and almost all had physical evidence of child abuse verified by physicians. (Reporter’s Notebook: 6 Months of California Case) Can we trust a recanter at all? They admit they lied once. Are they lying again?

socrates said...

Hi Bob, thank you for making a presence here. Thanks for the kind words concerning stuff I wrote related to this topic. I guess I was trying to make up for lost time.

Don't let the disinfo writers get to you. They could be outright censored. It wouldn't be because of the need to suppress their oh so valuable debunking info against people like ourselves. It would be a matter of we can't tell whether they are deluded or mak,ing a buck off this bull, so they need to go away.

If you'd like to write your stuff here, you're more than welcomed. I'd need your email address for your username to invite you. You could sign up at my forum and then private message it. Otherwise, these blogs are easy to set up. Only thing I request is you be a Democrat, even if that means you vote for the lesser of two evils. That's my one rule, seeing that I dedicated this place to Dave Weintraub. Take it easy.

Bob, these people are transparent. Don't sweat it. Alexandra heard that Hammond got pressured. Ha!!! These people are desperate. For some reason they feel that their disinfo is welcomed. They are very troll-like. I'd rather not interact with them. But if you want to, go ahead. No problem.

No need to suffer fools, Bob. They are into focking with our heads. It's kind of obvious.

socrates said...

Oops on that last post. I hit submit, when I was still cleaning it up. Anyway, folks new to the McMartin story are encouraged to check it out. I did what I could, and you can check out my stuff here. There were no tunnels. Alexandra or whatever is a liar looking to waste people's time. She is one desperate fool or paid fake wanting to turn a one-sided debate into an enigma. Debbie Nathan figured that scam out. Many others have also. Why such clowns feel I am going to allow their lies to be posted here is beyond me. They just might get lucky about it. I'll accept input from Bob and anyone else normal on how we should proceed. I can delete them. Or I can ignore them. I've got three rough drafts for new blog entries. I like to write. It takes time. Getting screenshots. Especially sprucing up my roughdrafts. I tend to write rough and clean it up later. I'm not God's gift to blogging, and if I were to waste all my time countering things that have already been proven otherwise a million times, I'd never come up with anything new. The same goes for all you other good people out there. We need to figure out ways to transcend trolls, whether they are paid or deluded.

bob said...

socrates,

I will give some thought to your kind offer. I'm not an American, but if I was I'd vote Democrat - naturally :)

This being your site, you should do whatever pleases you with SRA trollers. I don't see any purpose to allowing spammers or haters, but people who are just uninformed or disinformed sometimes raise issues that are worth the time to correct/debunk. In my opinion.

socrates said...

I don't know how accurate the Alexa rankings are, but a few weeks ago this blog was under 200,000 in America. That is very good.

I'm not sure I can maintain that alone. I pounded out a lot of good entries last month. On average, one every other day. Google takes good care of their bloggers. I'm sure that explains a lot of the action this place was getting. I was coming up with a lot of commentary on a lot of big names, for example Larouche.

I'm positive I could have been a decent blogger at big places. I tried. They don't want me. But unless other bloggers join in, I'm not sure how this place can become a player.

There's a certain internal consistency I look for in finding bloggers I find worthy of spending time reading. Everything you've written has added up. And I'm sure there are other things we have in common other than figuring out the satanic panic and Jeff Wells. The only criteria I ask is that one be liberal. No one need to be a self-professed "socialist" like myself. Heck, if someone could make sense and be a middle of the road liberal, I wouldn't mind.

The only thing is I'd need your email address that goes with your username. There'd be no restrictions on what you post. I think hammering out some entries on the things we've been going over would be a worthy endeavour. Perhaps since this place is already somewhat established, you could more easily get exposure for your finds and ideas. If you don't want to give out your email address in public, you can private message it to me at my slow forum. It's your call. No rush.

If I delete something for guest posts, it is right away. If it was good enough to survive my original reaction, I don't change my mind later. I also do realise it's not a good policy to be a closed shop. So I let these various people make their points, give their links, etc.. I'm not going to retort with well where's you're proof that Hammond was threatened to put a lid on it. I'm not going to go into details on the alleged tunnel at McMartin.

Personally, I think my thing on Susan Polk was my best effort. I figure the Gunderson stuff probably turned some people off. But the Polk case was a biggie. Felix Polk must have been one of those 16 therapists seeing nearly all of the sra/mc cases. Anyway, it truly is all about the reader deciding. The ones saying this Kathleen Sullivan stuff or the McMartin type cases are/were for real, I don't know who they're fooling. You made a great point that any therapist seeing one or two cases is not proof that the stories told to them were true, only that the patients were mentally ill.

I'm definitely more into social-psychology than political blogging. That's the one big difference between myself and Dave Weintraub. Actually two, if you count his street theatre. He was a latecomer to "troll busting" but ended up being one of the all-time greats.

Back to this subject, there is so much dirt we the people have on our governments, from participation in illegal wars to promoting unequal social structures. There's no need to make up stuff about Henry Kissinger running a satanic sex slave operation (according to Brice Taylor). There's simply no proof MKUltra continued or was anything close to the way the tinfoil zeitgeist portrays it. There's zero proof there ever was a govt. sponsored satanic pedophile ring.

I would not be surprised if some of this has had more to do with a rogue disinfo campaign than just grifting and mass hysteria. That's my tinfoil. A rigged internet. And I admit I don't think all contrails are contrails. Those are conspiracy theories I believe in based on research and reflection.

Dave was a good guy. You should check out his story, if you get the time.

bob said...

I did check out Dave, inspired by your references here. I'm sure i would have liked him. I have a history of street theatre activism myself.

socrates said:
"...there is so much dirt we the people have on our governments, from participation in illegal wars to promoting unequal social structures. There's no need to make up stuff about Henry Kissinger running a satanic sex slave operation (according to Brice Taylor)"

Yes. Exactly right. Many of us ARE aware of; corporate indifference to human injury & suffering they are responsible for, corporate indifference to destruction of the ecosystem they have caused, the many crimes committed by the CIA and other intelligence agencies around the world and against their own peoples, secretive collusions between governments, corporations and military/intelligence entities, etc. Many of us are already awake.

Back in 1995-98, I was an internet evangelist for these subjects myself. I was one of those who would shove the documented realities of these outrages in the faces of forum newbies who seemed naive about them. I gave up on discussing these subjects with people online, sometime after 9/11, because the conversation would invariably be invaded by tinfoilers claiming that the awareness many of us share on these topics is really a secondary disinfo fog, that we are still asleep to reality, and that The Truth can only be comprehended through unquestioning acceptance of their "secret knowledge" - derived from complex "between the lines" inferences and secret sources that could not be named without getting people killed.

I can accept that my knowledge & understanding of reality will never be complete, that there will always be new revelations to be considered, but I really feel that most of these Rabbit Holes simply distract people from the realities they already know and from becoming involved in constructive efforts to create change in our world. That they are "disinfo", as you say, whether intended as such or not.

bob said...

And I feel the same way about these Extreme Abuse claimants. The realities of child abuse in our society are horrific enough, there is no need to invent imaginary atrocities committed by invisible conspiracies. Mind Control/SRA stories only serve to distract people from the ugly yet mundane truths of pervasive child victimization around the world.

Getting back to the idea that therapists or other "trained professionals" can infallibly tell if their patient's stories represent reality or not -

Author Alice Miller, who is brilliant, has said this about the relationship between therapist and patient:
"Abandoning traditional concepts of psychoanalysis that often - like society on the whole - protect the parents and accuse the child, Dr. Miller explains why a therapist should become a partial, empathic witness to the survivor of obvious cruelty rather than a neutral analyst. She further provides a guide to help patients find the right therapist who will always and unconditionally stay on the side of the wounded child. Dr. Miller explains as well how to identify the causes of the unconscious pain that manifests itself later as depression, self-mutilation, primal inadequacy, and loneliness".

Many therapists practise this Millerian approach. They are not concerned with determining whether their patient's stories are verifiably true or not, they are concerned with validating their patient's victimization by uncritical acceptance of the patient's claims. To question the patient's truthfulness would be to "revictimize" them. Their role, they perceive, is to "always and unconditionally stay on the side" of their patient, i.e. "I will always believe you, no matter how difficult what you tell me might be for others to accept".

Which is fine, as a therapeutic technique, but therapists who practise this deliberate partiality necessarily abandon the objectivity required to discern truth from falsehood in their patient's life stories.

A bigger problem, however, is this idea that therapists can infalliby infer a person's true life history without interviewing people they were close to throughout their lives. Especially, the idea that therapists can infallibly infer that their patients had specific experiences which they patient hasn't related to them or is not even aware of having experienced.

It is not possible to "diagnose" a person's life history through checklists of symptoms. That is delusional, magickal thinking. That would be an act of divination, a magickal power that no therapist can actually possess. Yet, this is exactly what SRA therapists like Kee McFarlane claimed (and probably believed) they could do. They claimed that they could "see", through assessment of symptoms, that a given person had suffered ritual abuse in a satanic cult. If the person never made such a claim or denied such experiences, they interpreted this NOT as a sign that their "diagnosis" might be incorrect, but rather as proof that the person had "repressed" their memories of SRA. They would then set about "retrieving" the alleged memories through hypnosis or coaxing them out through leading & manipulative interrogation.

That is self-fulfilling psychological "voodoo", not valid therapeutic technique. Even the diagnosis of physical maladies, (through evaluation of symptoms alone), where there is at least an objective biological basis for the diagnosis,is frequently incorrect.
Imagining that anyone could "diagnose" specific life experiences in other people from a set of psychological symptoms is nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Many extreme abuse claims have been verified by court and government documents. Some state that child abuse is horrific, yet do nothing to stop it and deny that certain verified child abuse crimes exist.

Some therapists have verified the extreme abuse first hand via the harassment of themselves and their clients. Checklists of symptoms can help diagnose a client, similar to looking for the symptoms of diagnosing a cold or flu. Those with a lack of knowledge of the child abuse field would not know this. These symptoms with sibling and other types of corroboration, may validity extreme abuse and ritual abuse experiences.

bob said...

anonymous said:
"Many extreme abuse claims have been verified by court and government documents".

Is that so? And the specific claims of neil brick, lynn schirmer, brice taylor, laurel rose willson, cathy o'brien and kathleen sullivan...there are court and government documents verifying their personal life history claims? I don't think so.

anonymous said:
"Some state that child abuse is horrific, yet do nothing to stop it..."

You have no idea what contributions I may have made in the past or am currently involved with, toward stopping child abuse. But, since you raised the subject of doing nothing to stop abuse...
The publicity-seeking and "activism" of neil brick, lynn schirmer, brice taylor, laurel rose willson, cathy o'brien and kathleen sullivan has led to the arrest of ZERO sex offenders from 1995 to 2010.
Investigation by local, regional and national law enforcement - whom the above named often implicate directly or indirectly of involvement in "Extreme Abuse crimes" - resulted in the arrest of over 1,200,000 sex offenders during the same period. Yes, that was OVER ONE MILLION ARRESTS.

anonymous said:
"Some therapists have verified the extreme abuse first hand via the harassment of themselves and their clients".

Many people receive prank phone calls or other forms of harrassment. If a victim claimant is targeted by unknown harrassers, even if they interpret the harrassment as having some similarity to their Extreme Abuse fantasies, that in no way verifies that they were; given to the CIA as an infant, subjected to tortorous mind control experimentation, sytematically raped by satanic cult members, prostituted to wealthy and powerful people, used as a drug mule, a sex slave and an assassin, etc.etc.

anonymous said:
"Checklists of symptoms can help diagnose a client, similar to looking for the symptoms of diagnosing a cold or flu".

Quackery! Ilnesses can be diagnosed, sometimes, but not a series of specific personal experiences. Schizophrenia can be diagnosed, but Satanic Ritual Abuse victimization could not be.

anonymous said:
"Those with a lack of knowledge of the child abuse field would not know this".

I'll happily stack my knowledge of "the child abuse field" against yours, any day.

Anonymous said...

There has been verification that mk-ultra type crimes existed and that different victims that did not know each other have corroborated details from each others' stories. Other forms of corroboration have been found as well.

Yes, we have no idea what you have done or even if anything you write is true. No one working to stop child abuse is "publicity seeking." The work of activists in the field has educated many around the country and the world to help prevent child abuse crimes.

The harassment of many extreme abuse survivors has been verified by their therapists and law enforcement.

Extreme abuse crimes can be diagnosed in much the same way as other diagnoses. This is not "quackery" but has been proven through research. There is a certain set of symptoms common to many of those that have suffered extreme abuse crimes.

Your attacks on others do not sound like they come from a bookstore owner. They sound like they come from a frequent internet poster.

socrates said...

I definitely feel we are on the same page. I remember one of your first posts you discussed Sociology and/or Psychology, and that's exactly where I'm coming from. When you started to mention Alice Miller, she had actually popped into my head right before you named her and after you talked about child abuse.

I studied her a bit. She is pretty good for understanding the psychology of child abuse. I used her work to help put together my ideas on the roots of fascism.

I came late to the internet, around 2005 for reading and posting on blogs. Maybe that explains all my searching through archives, as if I've been trying to make up for lost time.

I totally agree with you how conspiracy theory mindsets always seem to get in the way. When I was a student, I used to read a lot out of the Frankfurt School. Erich Fromm was my favourite. I also liked Herbert Marcuse, Walter Benjamin, even some of Adono and Horkheimer. Habermas, however, was a big time drag.

I mention that not to be a smartass, but to tie it in to your idea of how even if we bring these things up, the tinfoil zeitgeist will fit it into their routines. So the Frankfurt School becomes twisted into some convoluted conspiracy. Wilhelm Reich, that was another one I liked. He got spun into some crazy man going on about orgone. I know he actually did. But what about his other stuff? The Mass Psychology of Fascism was brilliant. One of my Professors kind of went oh well when I asked him about the orgone part. He said it's just one of those things, and that it doesn't detract from the majority of his work.

Those who have attacked me, like Larisa Alexandrovna, have pinned me as a whackjob. Fine. I sincerely saw the skies getting chewed up by aircraft. I felt and still do that there is a program to attentuate harmful uv-b solar radiation. I felt that if someone could show that this wasn't kooky, then awareness of it would grow. I made that bed and have to sleep in it.

But uhm back to the topic. I guess Miller was just trying to help her patients find some peace by embracing the child within. Freud was into blaming the victim, always thinking in terms of sexuality and degradation. I think Freud was simply a victim of his time. He was brilliant, but living around the era of World Wars turned him into quite the pessimist. Maybe he was also a cokehead. I don't know. I guess this is similar to the debate between Hobbes and Locke, clean slate or are we born animals. I do like how Miller took Freud's profound finds and reconstructed them.

As for therapists like Hammond, Routley, Braun, and Ross co-opting her ideas, I don't know. I'll take your word for it. It does seem apparent that their worldviews, like how Freud's did, shaped their approaches. So I figure those dudes must have come up from religeous backgrounds to end up believing that there is Satan or whatever. Sometimes I wonder how my life would have ended up if I'd been raised in a backwards state like Arizona or Utah. Perhaps a lot of the answers are to be found in the backstories.

If you have any info on Braun or Ross or any of them, if there's any way you can help us understand how they ended up at the wrong conclusions they did, it would be appreciated. I did that for Kimberlin. To a point. Or in better words, Mark Singer did, and I read his book. We might not be able to figure everything out, but I do think we can keep growing as individuals while figuring out a lot. Too bad the internet isn't more conducive to that. I guess there's always hope.

Like with Kathleen Sullivan, there has to be an explanation. There has to be a life chronology that explains how she ended up the way she did. Same with Colin Ross. There must be an explanation. Now if he or anyone else is just a cynical actor making money off of manipulating others, then that's where I throw my hands up in the air and ask wtf.

socrates said...

Anon mentioned sibling corroboration. I've seen a few examples through my limited look into this topic that siblings have not backed up claims. Roseanne's siblings did not. I've also seen quite a number of retractions made along with situations developing out of hysteria. Though I don't feel the need to run around and repeat things posted on other threads.

I realise the blogger format isn't as effective as a forum, where threads can be bumped up. I don't know any way around that problem. This could be the kind of topic easier to flesh out at a forum like Rick Ross'. Or perhaps Bob will decide to make entries here or start his own blog and this type of debate can evolve beyond a simplistic, enigmatic formula. I mean, for example, how does one debate the McMartin case? Where's the need for a debate over the actions of Kee MacFarlane? What about the stuff Debbie Nathan came up with? We're supposed to believe she is part of some grand conspiracy to cover up child abuse?

Anon, is there anything about this topic that you'll admit is just too absurd to take seriously? Where's your retort to Bob's reference to all those arrests of abusers by the very people your crowd claims are part of a conspiracy to cover up govt. sponsored, satanic-mkultra, pedophile rings?

bob said...

Anonymous said:
"Extreme abuse crimes can be diagnosed in much the same way as other diagnoses. This is not "quackery" but has been proven through research. There is a certain set of symptoms common to many of those that have suffered extreme abuse crimes".

ROFL! You are just determined to not "get" this, aren't you?

"Symptoms" may point to the existence of a physical or psychological malady. Hence, a tool such as Briere's "Trauma Symptom Checklist for Young Children" could be useful for a tentative assessment of MALADIES such as PTSD or even Dissociative disorders.

"Being raised in and abused by a multigenerational satanic cult, then tortured through CIA mind control experimentation, prostituted to wealthy & powerful persons, being trained as an assassin and murdering people while in a trance state, etc"

is NOT A MALADY. It is a very specific series of experiences. No checklist of "symptoms" can "diagnose" that a person suffered such a very specific series of experiences.

You seem to be trying to assert that many "extreme abuse victims" possess a similar collection of characteristics. Even if that were true, it would not be reversible - i.e., the possession of a specific collection of characteristics cannot "diagnose" that a person is necessarily an "extreme abuse victim". All chipmunks are mammals, but not all mammals are chipmunks.

Anonymous said...

Extreme abuse victims do have trauma symptoms specific to their abuse histories, including specific dissociative symptoms.
Trauma symptoms are "reversible" with an appropriate treatment regimen. Certain "specific experiences" can create specific symptoms among victims.

Anonymous said...

Hi Guys,

Thanks for this fantastic blog. I stumbled across Kathleen Sullivan, for the first time, this afternoon, and I was looking for evidence to back up her claims when I found my way here.

I notice you're looking for a forum to further discuss this subject, and so I just thought I'd tell you about the forum I hang out on.

It's called FWIS - From Where I Stand - and the address is: http://loresinger.com/FWIS/index.php

We're not a very large forum, but we do have some really good people there and debunking nonsense is one of our favorite pastimes.

This is not spam, and I'm not trying to advertise, so feel free to delete the web address if that's against your rules or anything, but do come by for a visit.

I'm known as SciFi Chick at this forum should you drop by and wonder who left this comment.

Anonymous said...

It's pretty sad you two Bob and Socrates spew so much bullshit. Seems to me you two are tools and doing your jobs as disinfo agents yourselves. It happens, It's been happening since ancient times, as back as druids go and will continue happening. Just because it sounds outrageous or not believable to you it doesen't mean it's not true. It means you two need to make some research. And Socrates, it's a shame you have an avatar of the greatest man that ever lives who stood for truth and freedom which you clearly don't.