This blog is dedicated to the memory of David Weintraub, who took on insidious astroturfers and won.

Saturday, February 27, 2010

The Historic Troll Ormond Otvos

I've made some mistakes as a blogger. I thought donkeytale, for example, was a historic troll. Fortunately, everything eventually comes out in the wash, and it turns out that dude is a good jake.

I have no qualms calling out Ormond Otvos as being a historic troll. I believe no wash cycle will lead me to retracting such an idea. Who is Ormond Otvos? Here he is. Feel free to cover your eyes.

He looks kind of similar to another internet disinfo writer named Lyndon LaRouche. Perhaps they are related? (I know, more than likely not, just trying to be entertaining before getting to the good stuff.)

Hey Lyndon, you ever hear of toothpaste or think of capping those teeth?

Uhm, here's an off-topic digression. That picture of LaRouche came courtesy of this link. For those of you who have been following my meanderings covering the satanic panic, this is for you.

From his 1989 pamphlet Is Satan in Your Schoolyard?
Put the pieces together. First, the creative capacities of the nation’s youth — truly their most precious possession — are destroyed by drugs. Next, the sexual identities of millions of Americans are thrown topsy turvy by a culture that extols the virtues of homosexuality. And finally, Satanism, the worship of Evil, emerges as a new religion.

Let's get back to Ormond. There's one other person I think he may be related to. If so, the irony couldn't be any more delicious. Is atheist Ormond Othos related to Kris Kringle?

Thank you for that image of Santa Claus.

Most of my best trollbusting has happened after insidious internet personalities have gotten in my face. Recently Otvos decided to start attacking me. I'd known about him for about a year. For the most part, I found him to be one of the most boring bloggers of all time. So I tended to ignore his blatherings. Thus, until the last few days, I didn't realise how of an outrageous presence he's had as a blogger. Now I do.

As I've said before, it is near impossible to tell the difference between an unpaid useful idiot and paid disinfo. Unless paystubs emerge as in the case of Hal Turner, we can only guess based on circumstantial evidence. Another historic troll named DavidByron recently came out with an agent provocateur styled statement of the need for aiming higher with violence. Anyone promoting the use of violence as a means of social protest, as Hal Turner did, should be a prime candidate for suspicions of one being in a paid position to essentially "draw out the crazies."

Otvos messed up in this precise fashion the other day. He has posted that he believes the action taken by the man who recently flew a plane into the IRS building was heroic. That's not cool, Mr. Otvos.

I'm not saying for sure that Otvos is an agent provocateur. However, I believe that statement above is the kind that one of those would make.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's travel back in time to 1967 courtesy of the google news archives.

Hmmm, it's 1967, and self-described hippies are downplaying the use of civil disobedience or demonstrations as they put it. Isn't that special?

Sounds good on paper.

Wow. 1967 was during the time we were quagmired in that disgusting Vietnam War, and the Civil Rights Movement was flourishing. Yet, the Hippie Mission felt dispensing drug info was the #1 priority.

Wow again. Otvos didn't think the Vietnam War was a war. He wasn't a part of the anti-war peace movement. He wasn't into demonstrating. Does this make any sense?

Predictably, about eight months later the Hippie Mission closed shop.

Ugh. The Hippie Mission "attracted a few regulars, mostly semi-homeless teen-agers... The mission was "home" to to half a dozen boys and girls who slept on the bare floor or in lumpy chairs." Otvos was 26 at the time. Kind of sounds creepy.

Perhaps one of the reasons Otvos wasn't part of the growing anti-war movement was the influence his dad had on him. According to Ormond (on the Cuban Missile Crisis),

At the time there were enough Soviet Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles to smash the entire USA, on four-hour alert. My father, Master Chief Albert Otvos, who'd been recalled from recent retirement, was leading chief at Boca Chica Naval Air Station near Key West, called me in San Francisco and scared the shit out of me, saying it looked like the Marines were going in. At the time there were 40,000 Russian troops in Cuba, with tactical nuclear weapons, Soviet submarines with nuclear torpedoes near US carriers...

One could literally fill hundreds of pages worth of Otvos quotes displaying his anti-semitism, Holocaust revisionism, promotion of eugenics, and even some blatant racism. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel. Such info is easily accessible on the internet. I will post some of it.

The definition of a Jew moved long ago from the Jews to the wider world.

That's why it's a bad thing to keep giving lip service to.

Jewishness is used by bad people to reinforce their own self-imposed apartheid. link

Is anti-Semitism real, or propaganda? ...
Perhaps the Jews were used as the spearpoint for the effort not so much as Jews, but as an easily identifiable rogue culture that insisted on its apartness from the general society. Yes, there were more Jews killed than other individual and less outstanding groups, but all the groups were distinguishable. It seems more an argument for the benefits of assimilation and socialization into the larger and more dominant society than a particular attack on Jews...
Is anti-Semitism an expression of the problems of polymorphous perversity in the sense Herbert Marcuse used it as deriving pleasure from being outside normative behavior? What's the kink about being different? Does it get you high to be persecuted, make you feel special enough for the pain of societal exclusion? Or do you have to be taught that the pain makes you special, and special is good? ...
Genocide is just cheap labeling for political correctness. link

JEWJITSU, or the Pitiful Killers.
...Why is this particular small tribe so good at getting us to pay attention to their unremarkable woes? (At this point, if you're normal, you should think of the HOLOCAUST, maybe you're even trained to have SHOAH come blinking up your vision. You should be quivering with anger that anyone could be so cruel and heartless and ahistorical as to ignore and demean the horrible suffering of the people who ran afoul of the German ideological tendencies.)

Hungary gets stomped regularly. Don't even think about the Sahel. Vietnam is still filled with land mines. Chechnya, too, had its hour of blood. But Israel goes on and on and on, the tireless meme.

Let's look at that meme, and see if we can figure out why it's so key. I think there are two aspects to consider, you may think of more. If you are able to think about I/P at all.

The facts aren't even undisputed, after sixty years, or six thousand, if you are too close to the meme. link

Israel is an infected splinter in the umma, according to a LOT of people who are of a religious and suicidal bent... I'm not selling anything, mplo, I'm describing a situation that you can't bring yourself to see.

You're not alone. You're surrounded by people taken in by victimology of all sorts. Whining is the new character reference, and you're validating it. link

Ormond Otvos doesn't consider himself a Holocaust denier. Yet, he does question the number of Jews killed. That is a form of Holocaust denial. Above, one can see how he said the numbers are disputed. Later on he added this.

I don't deny the Shoah. I do think it's overblown due to a very specifically directed campaign. link

Is Ormond Otvos a Holocaust denier? I think so. I believe anyone who questions the numbers is one indeed. A form of denier will claim to believe in the Shoah. They tend to never provide an opinion of how many Jews they believe were actually killed by the Nazis. Perhaps if such people stuck to the argument that Israel often uses the Holocaust to serve current politics, they might have a point. However, Holocaust deniers or minimisers are actually the Palestinians' worst enemies by provding cover for Israeli transgressions. It's ridiculous for anyone to claim not to be anti-semitic or a Holocaust denier while arguing Israel's existence is based on a hoax or overblown account of the Nazi's "final soulution." Two-thirds of European Jews were murdered, and that was ample justification for creating the state of Israel. Do the Palestinians deserve their own homeland too? Of course.

How is Ormond Otvos not a form of Holocaust denier?

I'm not a fan of the Daily Kos, but more proof can be read there showing that Ormond Otvos has been a historic troll. One can check it out for him or herself or take a look at the examples I will now provide.

Hmmm. I see one diary of his titled, "Ron Paul Crushes Timmeh!" Talk about right woos left and shades of Pinche Tejano.

Another one he wrote was, "Demographics: What's Your IQ? (POLL)." He wrote, "...I suspect that if each person reading this clicked the appropriate poll button, it would confirm my suspicion that the level of raw thinking power around here is exceptional." This guy has to be one of the most self-absorbed know-it-alls in blogging history.

In "Moron blogger tarnishes self...," Otvos correctly pointed out that Kos is a moron. However, I'm not quite sure why he was so offended by Kos calling Republicans morons. Maybe I missed it, but has Otvos ever spoken out against Moulitsas' love for the CIA? Ormond took the time out to warn Francis Holland about his promoting of Hillary Clinton at DKos, but I can't seem to locate any critique by Otvos against Kos' describing the CIA as, "a liberal institution with its heart in the right place."

From: Ormond Otvos
To: Francis Holland
Monday, December 4, 2006

Interesting exchange. I've followed a few like this.

Do you think you're damaging Hillary, [yet]?

If you don't care, the project collapses, making you look like a Republican agent.

I've changed the tags three times already. You're stirring things up too much. I suspect banning will occur at this point.


That sounds like agent provocateur rubbish to me. WTF?

In this DKos diary, Ormond showed a definite pro-military slant. (excerpt)

Optimizing Our Anti-Jihad Military
I want to talk about reasons for expanding OR changing the job of the military.

Perhaps the least discussed idea on DK is that we live in a world that requires that the US needs a military, and that the future will require a different military makeup AND mission than before, and that it is no small thing to change such a massive institution.

How do we rework the military to counter the religious fundamentalist threat?

Turn on your TV. Where do those thousands of raving lunatics come from, to staff the cartoon riots, the Iraq riots, the anything-anyone-does to offend Islam riots?

So we see Otvos promoting the military. His dad was a bigwig in the Navy. With his Hippie Mission, he downplayed the Vietnam War, dismissed the idea of protesting, and concentrated his "movement" on dispensing information on drugs, all the while generating a small following of semi-homeless teenagers. Here we see that he was calling for either an increase in military spending or a new focus on the perceived post-Cold War threat of radical Islam. We're supposed to believe that Otvos is a real progressive?

In this diary, one can clearly see that Otvos believes some deaths from war can be seen as good things. That's not surprising to anyone who has heard his take on eugenics. While Lord DavidByron is fixated on the evils of feminism, Otvos is fixated on the evils of overpopulation.

Dawkins, Darwin, Theocide, Withdrawal
SOME SAY that if we withdraw from Iraq, it will collapse in a bloody religious sectarian tribal genocide, and become a failed Taliban/Al Quaeda state.

SOME SAY that Iraq will self-stabilize if we withdraw, and turn against Al-Qaeda and drive all foreign elements out of the country in a paroxysm of newly found national pride.

The guarantee behind both statements seems to be certainty that the behavior of religion in an overstressed society is predictable. I find that a foolish notion.

However, I can see some good in all this, on a planetary scale. If there is a huge massacre, it will occur amongst the religious, whose accidental rendings of the precious fabric of society are getting very annoying and dangerous to world peace.

One reason I think Otvos might have been a plant all these years is based on his last blog entry made at DKos which led to the banhammer.

At that point, he was already posting at Peeder's Political Flesh Feast. I didn't become aware of PFF, until after it had been whitewalled. From some minimal cybersleuthing, I was able to see that Joo haters such as Otvos and Denali had triggered Peeder into closing shop. Peeder was Kos' main tech geek who eventually had come to terms with the undemocratic nature of DKos' rating software. He did blog a fair bit at Maryscott O'Connor's MyLeftWing. When MSOC shite the bed through banning Francis Holland while simultaneously supporting someone now known as ThereIsNoRape, Peeder started PFF. It was a noble effort. However, when the Joo haters became too much for even him to handle, that was the end to an experiment promoting a free speech forum with relatively few if any bannings.

Part of the problem with DKos is that censorship takes the form of comments being hidden. That's no problem for "trusted users" with access to such posts. However, common slobs including myself have no way of knowing wtf has truly been going on at DKos over the years. Unless someone copies and pastes hidden comments, much of DKos has consisted of the cyber equivalent of book burning. Or think of this as the on-line form of a scrub brush.

Thankfully, some of the most vile postings made by Otvos displaying his inner ugliness have been reposted for all to see.

If Jews wish to wallow in their horrible history, I suppose they should be willing to accept the fact that it reminds people who to hate. Just like the colored, a term I much prefer to black.

I'm resistant to purposeful warping of perfectly good language terms in order to pick at old scabs. Comes a time, as Bill Cosby says, to just live your good values.

Never again? Palestine is a repeat of the ghetto. It doesn't work. Israel should revive that great old term "The Final Solution" for the Palestinian Problem.

I would have preferred that Jews just keep being part of the society they find themselves in. The ahistorical paranoia about antisemitism is absolutely parallel to me with the victim mentality of the dark-skinned segment of American society.


Maybe Jews tend to get too interested in controversy, and not enough in diplomacy. Could be cultural. You think Jews have a cultural bias toward controversy, dialectic, abstraction, nit-picking of the infuriating sort? I do. I think it comes from the school style.

So one can now see that not only is Ormond Otvos a Jew hater, he is racist against African-Americans. Is Ormond Otvos THE historic troll?

Here's some more. Maybe Otvos is related to Lyndon LaRouche, at least in regards to some of his ideology. Check out his Joos control America spin.

In Long view of history: Jews as Eminence Grise, ormondotvos writes:

* "Those who control the memes, control the voting, which still controls the country. I wonder if the AIPAC conglomerate is willing (I'm sure it's been discussed) to allow the USA to become more of an imperialist thug state than it is now. Currently we only oppress blacks and Indians, but I'm sure Mexicans and anti-Zionist liberals could be added to the list, although I'm sure they'd be labeled as "security problems", a handy phrase in all power grabs."

* "I'm all in favor of intellectual selection eugenicsof the "Why don't you marry a nice doctor or lawyer?" type. I just differ with the essential workability of roadblocks, starvation, and ghettos as a means to stabilize the world, or any small part of it."

That's classic right woos left stuff, period. Here was Otvos' response. This says it all.

My email is posted. Questions gladly answered.

Off subject jackasses like yourself are the bubonic plague of this site.

Take your narrow-minded intellectually cowardly trolling elsewhere.

Those comments were trolled out. Now you want to bring them up here to try to foul a different discussion.

Drop dead.

So Otvos was admitting he made troll comments. That sounds similar to what Hal Turner was spinning as his defense for agent provocateur styled writings made at his own blog. Perhaps Otvos was at the same FBI training seminar as Big Hal? Has Otvos been trying to "draw out the crazies?"

I apologise for this diary of mine going well beyond how long I originally expected it to. I'll wrap this up with one more screenshot and a link. I'm curious why Ormond Otvos has been supporting Wikipedia. The following was his signature for quite a while.

There's no way for me to prove the following. I sense that Otvos is on friendly terms with Jimmy Wales, the man who owns Wikipedia. I've no proof, just a feeling in my gut that goes beyond the raisin bagel with cream cheese digesting. Jimmy Wales can be tied to a Mr. Reese Jones, whose girlfriend runs One Taste in the San Francisco area. For those unaware of that alleged cult, here's an interesting thread from the Rick Ross website. Later on it gets into the Reese Jones-Jimmy Wales connection. The funny thing is there is a website called which has been shown to be owned by that same person, the man who started Netopia. If you go to the url, it will take you to a disinfo website called News Making News.


Ormond Otvos said...

Nice rant. Hope the meds kick in soon.

socrates said...

The reader decides.