Second Update: Larry wants to have his cake and eat it too. While he has made a couple posts sharing his general agreement with the 6 million number for the Holocaust, he continues to promote the idea that David Dees is not a Holocaust denier because Dees says around 200-300,000 Jews were killed by the Germans. Uhm, no. The Nazi Holocaust was all about an attempt to wipe out the whole Jewish population. Promoting the idea that the number killed was only 300,000 is Holocaust denial, period.
The following screenshot is courtesy of the Lord of Last Names.
Evening News
Third Update: David Dees showed up in the comments and made a complete jackass of himself. He is claiming that Hitler and the Nazis only killed 108,000 Jews. Also, due to The Last Name Left's request, here is an illustration created by Dees in which he claims that Hitler was framed. Wow.
National Wingnut Appreciation Day
I just made up this new holiday as an excuse to write another blog entry. What people need to realise is that there are two forms of wingnut. One is the standard we are all aware of, that represented by the likes of Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Ann Coulter. The second form of wingnut is composed of paranoid conspiracy theorists. Well-known nutjobs that fit into this category include Alex Jones, Michael Rivero, Jeff Rense, Glen Beck, Ted Gunderson, and Willis Carto. Now those are all big names. What is missing from those two short lists are useful idiots. Without them, such big mouths wouldn't be able to sustain their schticks. As the philosopher Joseph Dirt once opined, "It's all about the consumer."
One such useful idiot who falls into the latter category of wingnut is Larry Simons. I had never heard of him, until I started blogging a bit at The Last Blog Left. The owner, known as Tlnl (the last name left), had a message in his posting box that read, "Larry Simons is a twat." I asked him who he was. Although I didn't think that was a proper thing to have written in the posting box, I now understand why Tlnl came up with that message. I tried to give that kid Larry the benefit of the doubt, but he has one of the most foulest mouths of any blogger I've ever interacted with. I can't even repeat some of the invectives he posted. It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's even ok for on-line arguments to get a bit feisty at times. However, there is a line that none of us should cross. If we do, it should be as rarely as possible. Larry needs to figure that out. While much of what he posts about is preposterous in itself, he is doing himself no favours by cursing like a madman.
His blog can be found here.
I had told Larry that he is a wingnut. He wanted me to prove that. He thinks because he is a big critic of O'Reilly, Hannity, and GW Bush, then he can't possibly be one. Au contraire. Check above for how there are two forms of wingnut. As for anyone who thinks lefties can be wingnuts, get your troll descriptives in order. Wingnuts=righties. Moonbats=lefties. p:>
Anyway, I believe I was able to prove Larry is a wingnut in one word. Rense. As in Rense.com. For those too lazy to check out Larry's blog, here are some of the links he provides for his audience.
Combine "Patriot" plus conspiracy theory, and that's Larry Simons.
Now, I can live and let live with a bloke like this when it comes to his 9/11 inside job proselytizing. I can accept that he's been brainwashed into believing global warming is a hoax. I can accept that he believes we're all about to be arrested for practising free speech, that the FEMA camps await. What I do not accept is his promotion of holocaust denial. I can forgive him for not having a clue about the true natures of Rense, Rivero, Carto, Jones et al. He's a conspiracy theory freak. That's how they think. Call it cognitive dissonance or a blind spot. What I'd like to know is what this type of person will do, once he realises that he's supporting holocaust denial. Will he be man enough to get rid of the links? He doesn't link to Carto. No problem there. He may have used to. I don't believe it would be too easy to get him to see the anti-semitic nature of Rense, Rivero, and Jones. Or better put, I couldn't be bothered to try, especially seeing what a foul mouth he has.
Nonetheless, I'm interested in what he may do with the following plugs for David Dees, if he can be shown that Dees is indeed a holocaust denier. The following is on Simons' blog:
Larry Simons is linking to two of Dees' websites. There is no doubt that this guy is a holocaust denier. The following illustrations he made were singled out by the ADL for public censure.
David Dees is bad news.
Does Larry Simons have the ability to change? Will he do the right thing and stop pimping for holocaust deniers?
If Larry will take down the Dees and Rense links and consider doing the same for Alex Jones and any other links he has which can be tied to anti-semitism, I will apologise for calling him a wingnut. I will update this blog at the top and explain that he has seen the light. I won't be holding my breath, however. We shall see. He should be grateful at a minimum for myself plugging his blog. Even Arianna Huffington knows that bad publicity is better than no publicity.
191 comments:
Do any of Larry's sources fail to support holocaust denial?
;)
Here's Mark Weber of IHR featuring at Rense:
http://www.rense.com/general62/meth.htm
Ernst Zundel at Rense:
http://rensewatch.blogspot.com/2005/05/rense-and-zundel-part-i.html
From that Rensewatch site:
what Rense does when he places "commentary" by anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers, and neo-Nazis on his website, and provides them time on his radio program, goes beyond the "freedom of speech" that Chomsky and Voltaire are talking about. By providing them with a widely read and listened to forum, Rense is giving these people and their views far greater "play" than they could otherwise hope to achieve. He is not acting as a defender of the rights of these people to say what they want, no matter how despicable it might be; he is actively aiding and abetting them in saying it.
There is a fundamental difference, which Rense and his defenders (and he has many) either do not understand, or simply choose to ignore.
Im not a holocaust denier asshole. I have said several times on my blog Im not a holocaust denier---but why should you cocksuckers listen to facts?
Here are two stories I posted way in the past where I make it clear I believe in the holocaust---but of course, you wont read them.
http://realtruthonline.blogspot.com/2009/09/christians-hate-movie-creation-that.html
http://realtruthonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/left-wings-evidence-von-brunn-was-right.html
You can continue to leave untruths on your blog and bring shame to yourself by posting blatant falsehoods--thats your choice. But, keep in mind, in doing so, you become the VERY PEOPLE you criticize----disinformationists. I actually love this post about me, because it once again solidifies the fact that you two are not interested in FACTS, but only what you would LIKE to believe. I just showed you two links that CLEARLY illustrate that I believe in the holocaust, but you leave that false post up filled with lies if it makes you feel better. Of course, it makes you feel better---they're LIES!
I dont think in general that holocaust deniers completely dismiss people were killed. I think they dismiss it was 6 million.
Who cares if I have pictures by David Dees posted on my blog? So, I'm a holocaust denier because I post pictures made by a holocaust denier?? I think anyone using 1% of their brain will discover what ridiculous statement that is.
Its quite hilarious actually----the hypocrisy. When I told TLNL that he must believe in genocide because a global warming guy wrote a book calling for genocide----naturally, the Last Fraud Left told me how ridiculous it was for me to suggest that just because that guy advocated genocide AND global warming, that didnt mean that TLNL advocated genocide because he accepts global warming.
But if I simply post a PICTURE that was made by a holocaust denier, even if the picture is NOT depicting his holocaust denying----then THAT must mean that I deny the holocaust! How very funny.
Even funnier is how your post is one big long ad hominem attack---constantly calling me "twat" and not debunking ONE of my views.
I believe there was a holocaust---I even own Schindler's List. But what I am NOT is a Zionist. I do not support the United States' protection of Israel. Maybe you got holocaust denying and Zionism mixed up---like you do with everything else you talk about.
Keep the lies posted----I actually love it. It only illustrates your complete lack of interest in facts.
Oh and another thing. Is that ALL you can come up with as "evidence" that Im a holocaust denier, that I post pictures made by David Dees? If I truly was a holocaust denier, why have I not written ONE story about that in the 3 1/2 years of my blog? Ive posted over 600 stories and not ONE of them about holocaust denial---but I have posted the 2 [of which the links I posted above] where I DO mention I believe in the holocaust.
You two are disinformationist queenies.
The only thing Im sad about [about your post about me] is that the ONLY two people reading your blog are you and TLNL. I wish there was more people reading it and discovering what colossal liars you two are.
I post stories about Bill Maher too, and he thinks 9-11 truthers are nuts---but only because he has already gotten in trouble once with his 9-11 comments and it got him fired---now he's a complete bootlicking shill when it comes to anything controversial like that, so of course he will pimp for the official story---anything short of that will get him canned [for the 2nd time].
But I love what he says about religion. So, to you two twats, because I completely reject Bill Maher's stance on 9-11, that means I should reject EVERYTHING he says---right?? In other words, he cant POSSIBLY be right about religion because of my objections to his 9-11 stances---right??
I updated the blog entry, just like I said I would.
If you want to post here, you're going to have to can it with the foul language. I don't go for that kind of thing. If we were at a place that allows it, fine, but not here.
So don't be complaining if you ever get a post deleted. You'll know why. It'll be because of your gutter mouth.
The only question with the Holocaust numbers are in the hundreds of thousands, from what I can see. Anyone going even near questioning the numbers is either an anti-semite or a conspiracy freak idiot. Were the numbers rounded up to an even 6 million? Perhaps. But that's the extent of it.
Thus, people like Dees and Rense are two of the most vile people on the net. There was a plan to exterminate the Jewish population, and approximately two-thirds of European Jews were murdered. Not a couple hundred thousand. Well past five million and approaching six.
Yet, you Larry Simons prominently link to anti-semites who contend otherwise. If you can't prove your inside job and evil New World Order without utilising such scumbag links, you can't prove squat!
That you rely on such nasty sources might make one consider whether you are the disinfo agent covering up 9/11 truths and a world system through the strawman approach. You sound like, "Hey look at me. I am a madman screaming on the corner. Thus, everything I write is untrue." I think it's more likely you're a confused useful idiot. Rivero is the one who appears to be paid to post. Oh yeah, you also link to him.
Instead of cleaning up your own house, you continue to keep your head in the ground like an ostrich. Who one associates themselves with does matter.
And yet you STILL leave up the UNtruths about Dees [that he denies the holocaust happened at all]. You said CLEARLY in your story [right below the jail cell picture] "Zionist guards are pictured in front of a jail cell for people who “asked for proof” of the HOLOCAUST”-----so in that caption, you was NOT making a distinction between Dees saying he doubted the NUMBER and you claiming Dees was doubting the entire holocaust-----you CLEARLY indicated that you are accusing Dees of denying the holocaust altogether.
Also under the picture of the woman holding the holocaust book, it says “A woman reading a book questioning the holocaust is zapped with a laser gun…” Nevermind that the book the woman is holding is titled “Did 6 Million Really Die?”---which is questioning the NUMBER killed, not the holocaust itself! But, why do facts matter to you???
DISINFO!
You also left up the LIE that I “deny the holocaust”----I don’t---I never did. Did you even bother looking up the links I sent you from my site? Of course not—why should you care about FACTS?
Question for you socrates-----how do you even have the NERVE to condemn and insult others for disinfo when I have CLEARLY pointed out two GLARING untruths in this post [that David Dees denies the entire holocaust and that I am a holocaust denier]??? And even AFTER I leave these posts exposing your lies, you leave the LIES in your story!! Wouldn’t that put YOU in the EXACT SAME boat as the very people [Jeff Rense, Willis Carto, etc..] you condemn?? Yes, I believe it DOES.
By the way, I also love how you put your little “warning” that the next time I use profanity, you will delete my posts. Anyone with a brain can see that’s your way of deleting my posts [that expose your lies] in the future and claim that the reason you deleted me was that I was “using profanity” whether I was or not. That has already happened to me on Andy Ostroy’s blog. It’s a common tactic used by people like you when you are exposed as frauds. Besides, how can profanity be offensive to you anyway?? You have used it quite a bit on TLNL’s blog. Ostroy uses profanity in his articles as well, but yet, all of a sudden the profanity bothers you guys whenever my posts expose your lies??? Quite amusing.
Show me ONE website, ONE link, ONE tidbit of evidence that David Dees denies the holocaust ALTOGETHER. Any picture he has ever made shows quite clearly he questions the NUMBER killed, not the holocaust in general. BOTH pics you have posted [jail cell, woman holding book] BOTH clearly make reference to the NUMBER killed. Where’s your evidence he denies it ever happened at all??? AND, if your ONLY evidence that I deny the holocaust is based on that I post pictures from Dees [and Dees HIMSELF does not deny it happened altogether], then that would clearly mean I don’t deny it EITHER. But, as the links from my site clearly show, I don’t even deny the number.
Not that I care if you remove the lies and disinfo from your post [only you and the TLNL come here anyway]---but more importantly, are you going to remove it to protect your own integrity [if you have any]?
OK, so you updated it. Although you should be commended that you updated it, it should still hold some validity that if you had researched what you were talking about in the first place, you never would have been in error and therefore would have had nothing to correct.
However, you still have the disinfo posted that Dees denies the ENTIRE holocaust, in your post AND in the captions below the pictures. He is CLEARLY questioning the number. Questioning the number is NOT a holocaust denial.
I just emailed David Dees and asked him straight up how many he believes were killed---whic is what you should have done before posting your disinfo. Why am I doing your research for you??
Wingnut [not profanity]
Here's a question for you:
How do you know for sure 6 million died? Im not denying they did, but how do you know the number 6,000,000 is correct? Or even 5,900,000, or 5,700,000? Of course, you wont look at my question as an attempt to honestly ask how you know YOUR stance is correct. You will most likely insist i'm denying the 6 million, but Im not. Im simply asking you a question, and I would like a sensible answer.
How do you know it wasnt 4 million? 3 million? 1 million? The word "holocaust" means "a massive slaughter". That could be 100,000 or 500,000, or 1 million. Im simply asking---how do we know the 6 million is right? In my post from my own story I even said "How can we know that for sure?" I stand by that. How DO we know for sure?
Besides, other countries were responsible for those deaths as well, including the United States, for still doing business with Hitler while the killing was happening. General Motors and IBM was still doing business with Hitler during the slaughter, and the Bank of England was financing the Nazis.
The profanity rule is just for here. Don't talk like you did at TLNL's, and I won't delete anything. I also ask that you keep your posts on this one thread, unless by the odd chance you are interested in any of the other topics.
By the way, I am not a 9/11 debunker. I am on the sidelines for that one. You shouldn't have written I am. I haven't been calling you a Holocaust denier either. The point of this entry was to show that you support Holocaust deniers. You know you do. You even admit to it. You link to Rense. Rense doesn't promote Holocaust denial? Oh yeah, according to you, they are only questioning the numbers. Well, that is denial, period. Let's see what Dees has to say for your direct question. I doubt he responds. Or he'll fudge it. Questioning the numbers is immoral.
It wasn't on me to find your two measly comments saying the Holocaust really happened. You say this blog doesn't get much traffic. That's funny. You have a stat counter from Alexa. This blog is much higher than yours in the Alexa readings. I was doing you a favour by linking to your blog. You are truly not read by many. So you might want to reconsider critiquing DFQ's stats, when they are doing better than yours.
I agree with you that US companies were doing business with the Nazis. I covered that elsewhere. There was a BBC documentary that came out. Prescott Bush and his buddies were planning on a coup on Franklin Roosevelt. It never happened, but that it was planned speaks volumes about that specific brand of wingnut you do rail against.
I think we should keep this simple. That was a good thing you did asking Dees how many Jews he thinks were killed in the Holocaust. As for whether it was mostly done by gas chamber or bullets, that I don't know. Perhaps the key is to get as close to the actual number as we can. But I disagree with you about 100,000 or so being the same as 1,000,000, as in a slaughter is a slaughter. 1,000,000 would be very different from three. Then of course, anything above that is what we are really trying to pin down. I think it can be attained. But I doubt you are openminded to the fact that you are supporting Holocaust deniers. Why should it be questioned that over 5 million were killed? I guarantee over 5,500,000 were killed as in Hitler and them were truly trying to wipe out the Jewish population. That is the crux of this. Genocide. There is clearly no difference between 5 and 6 million. Sure, to the victims yes, but not for the sake of this discussion, imho.
Because at the heart of Holocaust denial is the idea that the creation of Israel was never a necessity. My heart goes out to the Palestinians, no doubt. But I'm also all for the State of Israel's right to exist. The proper solution would be for the Israeli's to cease with their asymmetrical warfare; For a Palestinian homeland to be established; For true peace in the valley, so to speak. There's no turning back the clock to 1948. There are many who are calling for the destruction of Israel. Israel was created precisely because of the Holocaust.
I doubt you'll ever take down your links to Rense, Rivero, and Dees, even if you become aware of the truth of the 6 million number. You seem very set in your ways. You don't come across as someone who would say, "You know what? I was wrong. These people are wrong to question the Holocaust numbers, and it's time I remove these links."
Dude, you don't need those scumbags to do your 9/11 thing. You don't need them to expose a global system based on war and inequality. The sooner you realise this, then perhaps you will become a blogger of status. Right now you are a brick in the wall of conspiro-tainment. Period.
I mean this in all sincerity----really I do, but: Are you retarded? Seriously. Really. How many times do I have to say that Dees is NOT a holocaust DENIER. He believes there WAS a holocaust. He only questions the NUMBER. Why dont you comprehend this???? The fact remains: You call him a holocaust denier. If he is ONLY debating the NUMBER killd, that is NOT denying there was a holocaust!!! Do you UNDERSTAND that?
If Dees believes it was 100,000--that is STILL a holocaust.
If he believes it was 1,000,000---that is STILL a holocaust.
3,000,000----still a holocaust.
Get the picture? Its disingenuous to title people holocaust DENIERS if they STILL believe there was a holocaust! If you wanna call them "holocaust official story deniers" be my guest--at least that would be accurate. Now, change the wording in your post AND in the picture captions where you make it appear as if he thinks there was no holocaust at all.
By the way, as usual, you ignore my questions. Answer this:
How do you know it wasnt 4 million? 3 million? 1 million? The word "holocaust" means "a massive slaughter". That could be 100,000 or 500,000, or 1 million. Im simply asking---how do we know the 6 million is right? In my post from my own story I even said "How can we know that for sure?" I stand by that. How DO we know for sure?
Just to say "Dude, this is ridiculous to even get into. The facts are clear. The number is very close to 6 million" is a complete diversion from the question. Thats like me saying "the facts are clear, 9-11 was an inside job". Although I believe it is clear, YOU would never accept that as an ANSWER, so why do you put forth the SAME answer when you are asked a question??
What makes it CLEAR? Please tell me. Why is it WRONG to question the number? You never answered that either. If Im the wingnut, why do you REFUSE answering my questions? Too hard, or just lazy to research it because its so much easier accepting the received reality?
Dees likes to claim he is only targeting (and demonising) "zionism"....rather than all Jews.
Anti-semites use this as cover --- though not everyone criticising "zionism" is necessarily intent on being anti-semitic.
However........look at this image by Dees:
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/flaggg_dees.jpg
It shows the Israeli flag.....with the Star of David.
The text alongside says the Star of David is
"indisputably the symbol of Judaism"
GOT THAT? JUDAISM - not Zionism.
So, when you see Dees using the Star of David, he is NOT as he claims, using it to denote "Zionism".....he is using it to denote Judaism.
Then we have this picture:
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/Auch_dees.jpg
This picture employs the holocaust deniers false claims about Auschwitz "quietly revising" its figure for Holocaust deaths following overthrow of Societ Union.
Dees writes "Wait a minute! A 2.5 million people mistake?"
Then he mentions Ernst Zundel.....then he asks "Was Israel created on a lie?"
If you can't recognise this as much the same holocaust denial employing familiar themes employed by Nazi apologists, then you're stupid.
First of all - there was no "quiet revising" of the figure.
Auschwitz was in Soviet bloc Poland and the west had NEVER considered the Soviet numbers accurate. When the Soviet Union was overthrown, the Poles conducted an investigation, and revised their figure - which then accorded with the Western figures. The Western figures had ALWAYS been the same - there was no need to revise them.
Dees is pushing the (holocaust deniers) idea that the change in Poland's figure should effect the Western estimate downwards. As it hasn't - the suggestion is that there's some manipulation and lieing going on. There isn't.
This is another common theme of holocaust denial. If you had any familiarity with holocaust denial you would recgnise this immediately, Larry, and see it for what it is.
It's clever propaganda. It's designed to encourage holocaust denial.
What else can we call it when people like Dees suggests "there needs to be an investigation"?
THERE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATIONS - LIKELY MORE THAN ANY OTHER HISTORICAL EVENT.
To suggest there haven't been "investigations", or to deny the conclusions of those investigations, is holocaust denial.
One needn't ask Dees his view - he is hardly likely to admit to something so reprehensible. What difference does it make what he says, really?
The ADL make no hesitation in calling Dees' "work" anti-semitic.
Check out this thread at Stormfront about Dees:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=575966
Why do the stormfront nazis like Dees so much?
Gee, I wonder?
Look at this picture on that thread - http://rense.com/1.imagesH/framed_dees.jpg
It clearly suggests Hitler was "framed".....and it reiterates holocaust deniers claims about Zyklon B etc.
That's holocaust denial - and it's a Nazi apologia.
No wonder the Nazis like Dees so much, huh?
Wow, severe mental retardation going on here.
"L: Im simply asking---how do we know the 6 million is right?
You could just actually start reading some books."
Ahhh, you mean books that say it was 6 million? Quite funny. So, if I read the Bible and it says God exists, it it true because the Bible told me it was? Quite insane.
Do you 2 know what the word "holocaust" means? Ive already posted it TWICE. It means "a massive slaughter". tell me something:
Is 3 million a massive slaughter?
Is 4 million a massive slaughter?
So, IF Dees believes it was 3 or 4 million, would that STILL be "holocaust" denying????
"Contesting the numbers to any great extent is obviously holocaust denial.....whether someone asserts no-one was murdered or whether they assert one person was murdered, both are holocaust denial. The denial of even a single murder is denial."
No one being murdered is NOT a "holocaust"---so if someone denied there were ANY murders, that WOULD be holocaust denial. One person murdered is NOT a holocaust since "holocaust" means "a MASSIVE slaughter". The denail of a SINGLE murder is holocaust denial? So, 5,999,999 people is NOT a "massive slaughter"???? Wow! You guys are ready for straight jackets!
I will respond to socrates' SILLY analogy:
"If someone says the moon is made out of cheese, it's not the responsibility of rational thinkers to prove otherwise."
First of all, the fact that people have been to the moon and that we can STILL GO TO THE MOON to verify the fact that it is NOT made of cheese makes your analogy silly all by itself. Secondly, in your SILLY analogy, the person is not denying the EXISTENCE of the moon which is what you are saying Dees is doing [denying the EXISTENCE of the holocaust] so your analogy is twisted on many different levels.
TLNL, how do you explain the plaques that say 4 million and 1.5 million? Why the discrepency?
AGAIN, Dees is questioning the NUMBER of people.
If you two twits cant give me ONE piece of evidence that Dees denies the ENTIRE HOLOCAUST ever happened at ALL, then stop calling him a "holocaust denier".
Why do you all care so much about this anyway? I know Nazi's came to America after WWII. I know all about Operation Paper Clip. I know old Nazis AND neo-Nazis are in America. How does disputing the number of people killed make them any LESS Nazis?
TLNL, how do you explain the plaques that say 4 million and 1.5 million? Why the discrepency?
AGAIN, Dees is questioning the NUMBER of people.
Dees is engaging in holocaust denial. If you like, you can choose to call it holocaust minimisation. It's still holocaust denial......
I explained about this elsewhere at LeavingAlexJonesTown blog:
The supposed "downward revision" of the numbers on the plaque at Auschwitz is actually a common feature of holocaust denial - it's used to generate suspicion of the entire Holocaust, of course.
However, it does have a perfectly reasonable and well documented explanation: Auschwitz is in Poland, which was formerly in the Soviet bloc, at which time the plaque had the higher figure of 4 million - as dictated by Official Soviet History (Stalin's falsification of history etc). Western historians NEVER accepted the 4 million figure - but always asserted approx 1-1.6 million. After the fall of the Soviet Union, and Poland's "liberation", Poland undertook an independent re-investigation of the matter, and subsequently came to the same conclusions Western historians had always maintained - 1-1.6 million. The plaque was then changed.
This also explains why there has no need for a wider "revision" of the overall Holocaust numbers following the change by Polish authorities as the Western estimates were ALWAYS circa 1-1.6 million murdered at Auschwitz.
The discrepancy was a result of Stalinist falsification - not of Western historians' confusion.
The confusion is cynically or ignorantly exploited by holocaust deniers.
Larry says:
I know Nazi's came to America after WWII. I know all about Operation Paper Clip. I know old Nazis AND neo-Nazis are in America. How does disputing the number of people killed make them any LESS Nazis?
It doesn't make them any less Nazi. It's part of their effort at legitimising Nazism - by minimising its crimes.
It also serves (in their eyes) to delegitimise Israel.
Why do you all care so much about this anyway?
Because we aren't big fans of Nazis and their Holocaust. Obvious?
Plus, people like yourself are (seemingly unwittingly) giving them succour - by defending them....promoting them....legitimising them....echoing them....pushing their propaganda....doing their dirty work for them.
"The places I live were bombed by nazis - people i know lost relatives - their are still remnants of anti-tank structures.....airfields....ordnance factories etc"
And your countries banks financed the Nazi's----blame YOUR country and MY country for doing business with Hitler. Had the Nazi's not had the money to buy the planes, the tanks and the guns---how far would they have got? I'll tell you....NOT far at all.
Do the victims justice and blame EVERYONE involved---not just a select group of people.
Call Dees a "revisionist"--not a denier.
Are you proud that your country [Bank of England] financed Hitler?
Well, you know, that's really quite insulting.
What do you think? After what I have said, do you think I would be "proud of my country financing Hitler"?
You know what the answer would be. I'm not really for nationalism at all - so national pride about anything is moot, really. Let alone anything to do with being proud of with regard to Hitler - except his defeat.
The relatively peaceful relinquishing of British colonialism is also something to be "proud" of. Better than it not happening. British multiculturalism is something to be proud of - British tolerance - British inventiveness - industriousness - etc. All good stuff, and nothing to be ashamed about. You won't catch me waving the flag much though.
Anyway - what do you mean by suggesting the BoE "financed Hitler"? Explicit claims? Details?
You're a socialist. Hmmmmm, then why dont you LOVE Hitler.
Oh dear.
You DO realize that the term NAZI is short for "Nationalsozialistische" which means National SOCIALIST!!!!
Yes, I know NSDAP.
What you don't know is the difference between socialism and NSDAP/Nazi/NationalSocialism.
A clue - socialism is internationalist. Racism can be seen as a form of socialism for one race - at the expense of others. Not really socialism.
Nazism - and Hitler - was never socialist. Some Nazis were mistaken - and Hitler taught them a lesson in the night of the long knives, the Roehm putsch? - when he purged the "left", assassinating many.
You know the Pastor Niemoller poem......first they came for x y z but i didn;t speak out.....because I wasn't an xyz......when they came for me, there was no-one left to speak out.....? You know those words?
The first line is
first they came for the communists
FIRST - the communists
the second line is
then they came for the trades unionists
Funny sorts of socialists these Nazis - hunting down socialists and trades unionists to extinction even before the jews.
NationalSocialism as a name was purposefully beguiling - and its effect is still working with you.
Hitler was a member of the NATIONAL SOCIALIST GERMAN WORKERS' PARTY.
Ha - not just "a" member.
You have more in common with Hitler than David Dees does!
I'm not sure there's a more offensive thing you could choose to say.
I hope you're proud of that.
your countries banks financed the Nazi's
Details?
I am not here to protect international capital (or British capital) from charges of collusion with Nazism.
Be my guest to present whatever evidence you have of British collusion - or that of others. Please do?
----blame YOUR country and MY country for doing business with Hitler.
there's plenty of blame to go around. that doesn't excuse Hitler, or germany.
Hitler should have been stopped at his first move to reclaim the German industrial heartlands - in contravention of Versailles - and League of Nations - which AMERICA refused to join. Blame american isolationism - ok? YOur policy, right?
Blame Berlin and "Peace in our time!"........for selling out the Czechs so disgustingly.
Blame the failure of Britain and France to seal an allaince with Russia before the Nazis consumated the Nazi-Soviet pact.
Sure.
Had the Nazi's not had the money to buy the planes, the tanks and the guns---how far would they have got? I'll tell you....NOT far at all.
The ruhr, Czech.....etc.
I have no problem with criticising the compulsion of capitalism which leads it to encourage war - for profit. No problem with criticising that at all - I'm a socialist.
Do the victims justice and blame EVERYONE involved---not just a select group of people.
How do you know I don't? I mean, I only have limited knowledge, but I don't have any desire to exonerate anyone from legitimate and deserved criticism.
That doesn't mean Hitler - and Nazism - weren't the central actors and cause of all the horrors of WW2. I know British - and European - and American imperialism contributed. And Japanese. And everyone else.
Nevertheless, Hitler did not have to rebuild his army navy and airforce.......he did not have to march into the Rhineland.....the Anschluss, Czech, Poland, Barbarossa etc whoever gave him however much money.
So, let me get this straight. If I go out and kill 35 people in a shooting spree and the media dubbs me a "mass murderer" [which they would be correct], but later on it is discovered that I only killed 29 people, not 35---am I STILL a mass murderer?
Yes or no?
well, i guess. a multiple killer, yes. a total nut - yes.
I would ask you this - imagine if your parents, brothers, sisters, children and friends had been killed in the attack - and yet people said that they never were killed by this nutter.........how would you feel?
how would you feel if people listed the murder victims, but always left out your father's name, say? IF they denied he had been killed too? If people suggested he hadn't even actually existed, or that he wasn't murdered he'd actually just died of a heart attack, and therefore wasn't the responsibility of the mass killer?
And that people tried to mount a wholly dishonest campaign to claim the murderer was wrongly convicted - that your parents and children hadn't been gunned down by some killer, and that the killer should go free.......and was in fact a victim of injustice himself?
How would you feel? (I don't like such analogies - but you do - so......)
Call Dees a "revisionist"--not a denier.
No!
Historiccal revisionism is legitimate practice.......holocaust denial is not legitimate history :
Scholars use the term "denial" to differentiate Holocaust deniers from historical revisionists, who use established historical methodologies.
The bank of England not only financed Hitler, but it was basically what launched him into power.
The entire financial fate of Germany was settled in London at a meeting between Hjalmar Schacht, the new Reich Commissioner for National Currency, and Montagu Norman, governor of the bank of England. Schacht, who had already abolished emergency money, began with a frank disclosure of Germany's desperate financial situation. He proposed to open a German credit bank second to the Reichsbank, but one that would issue notes in pound sterling. Schacht asked Norman to provide half the capital for this new bank. Within 48 hours Norman not only formally approved the loan at the exceptionally low interest of a flat 5% but convinced a group of London bankers to accept bills far exceeding the loan.
In 1934 Norman informed a select group of City of London financiers that Hitler's regime was a system with a good future. With no opposition, it was decided to provide covert financial help to Hitler until Norman could persuade the British government to abandon its pro_french policy to one more favorable to Germany.
.....and the rest is history.
Thanks to England, Hitler slaughtered 6 million people. Like I said, the bankers are in charge.
In the 1930's many people in both America and Britain were in agreement with Nazi ideology. This is exactly why the Business Plot happened in the 30's----which was several bankers and businessmen [including Prescott Bush, the father of George HW Bush and grandfather to George W Bush] plotting to assassinate Roosevelt and install a fascist government---until it was whistleblown by Smedley Butler, one of the people they asked to join the plot.
"how would you feel if people listed the murder victims, but always left out your father's name, say? IF they denied he had been killed too?"
Thats a good point, which prompts this question:
Do you have all 6 million names that were killed? Were each one verified they were killed by Nazi's? Im not saying they weren't. Im just asking. Has each name been verified? In the analogy of the shooting spree, it would be quite easy to verify 29 people and how they were killed---but 6 million? A tad tougher. So I ask, despite it being tougher to verify...ARE all the names of the 6 million verified?
Ive seen pictures of big piles of bodies, and have even seen pictures of modern museums that show all the hair they cut off, all the glasses, the shoes, the clothes---but that could have easily been from 4 million, 5 million people. So I ask, are the 6 million verified? Take for example Anne Frank who MANY, still to this day believe she was one of the 6 million slaughtered, along with her sister---but she died from typhus in one of the camps days before the war ended. I bet if you ask 100 people, 95% of them think she was slaughtered.
Are the ones who died from disease counted among the 6 million? Just asking.
The bank of England not only financed Hitler, but it was basically what launched him into power.
Rubbish.
Make your argument - be my guest? Simply claiming it doesn't make an argument. I want more than your easy claims.
What's the source for all this? So far as I can tell, it's Webster Tarpley.
Hmmm.
Details of these claims, please?
In 1934 Norman informed a select group of City of London financiers that Hitler's regime was a system with a good future. With no opposition, it was decided to provide covert financial help to Hitler until Norman could persuade the British government to abandon its pro_french policy to one more favorable to Germany.
Details?
And look at the date - 1934.
One can go as far forward as Czech debacle to see how stupid much of British opinion on Hitler was.
I doubt you'd find many people arguing that appeasement was a success. Likewise, if Montagu Norman had persuaded the BoE to help finance Hitler - presumably to stave off an immediate crisis - then so what? Mistakes are made. That would have to go down as a huge mistake. But it was 1934 - and at that time no-one knew the future.
Even if true, it still doesn't justify or exonerate Hitler any. Nor does it remotely prove that the actual events were what was intended.
Thanks to England, Hitler slaughtered 6 million people. Like I said, the bankers are in charge.
Wow - that's quite an apology for Hitler.
Shocking. What an inversion.
In the 1930's many people in both America and Britain were in agreement with Nazi ideology.
Why are you so complacent that they're not now?
Why do you give succour to people who are in agreement with nazi ideology today?
What's the difference between then and now?
What's the difference between your (even unwitting) support for nazis now - and ignorant people in 1930s?
Don't you see the danger?
This is exactly why the Business Plot happened in the 30's
So why even ask why this is of such interest to some of us?
bankers and businessmen [including Prescott Bush, the father of George HW Bush and grandfather to George W Bush] plotting to assassinate Roosevelt and install a fascist government---until it was whistleblown by Smedley Butler, one of the people they asked to join the plot.
So why ask why all this is of such pressing interest to us?
It's fucking obvious?
Do you have all 6 million names that were killed? Were each one verified they were killed by Nazi's? Im not saying they weren't. Im just asking. Has each name been verified?
Well, no - it isn't possible to get a list of every jew in Europe, for example. And it isn't possible to draw a list of definite fate of every single person involved.
BUT - many can be directly accounted for. German records were very good, and many were recovered intact. The amount of documentation is quite immense.
For example, the train journeys, carriages etc, are well documented. Transports of jews can be traced from departure points all the way to Auschwitz for example. And then the trail ends.
There are enormous amounts of evidence - from all sorts of different sources. They build an incontestable account - with incredible detail at points. But not all details are always present, obviously.
The red cross (ICRC) has been granted responsibility of dealing with the personal records of the victims. There has been a big long hoo-ha about the details, because the ICRC wouldn't make the records public, on the grounds of protecting privacy etc. However, now they are in the process of making the records public, and opening them up more widely. Much more detail will become available to the general public (and not just researchers) soon.
This has been a bone of contention for deniers - why the secrecy? Well, soon the privacy aspects will be overcome, and the contents of the records will become more available. It surely won't stop the deniers - nothing will.
it would be quite easy to verify 29 people and how they were killed---but 6 million? A tad tougher. So I ask, despite it being tougher to verify...ARE all the names of the 6 million verified?
I'm pretty certain they are not. For one thing people became numbers. And as good as German bureaucracy was, war and mass extermination have a certain chaos.
I think you might be surprised at how much detail is available.
I don't think there is anything wrong in people legitimately asking such questions btw. It's just that one must do the work required to find out......and not be motivated by malevolence and a desire to exonerate the Nazis. From such a perspective, I don't see how anyone can fail to come to the conclusion that the Holocaust was sadly all too real. If one actually goes to find out - and uses decent sources.
One can find someone saying whatever one likes. IS it true, is a different matter. obviously.
And yes, of course this cuts both ways.
But it is incomprehensible that such a thing - such evidence - could be so fraudulent.
I know you don't think so - you have your beliefs over 911.
But that's where the crossover of conspiracism and holocaust denial (and more widely fascism) comes into it.
The fascist can just say all the evidence is fake. The 911 conspiracist will also say all the evidence is fake. At that juncture, the two are obviously potentially very close. Believe everything is a lie about 911, then why not about the holocaust? That's why 911 Truth has proven such an attraction for propagandising nazis.....and also why 911 Truth is so vulnerable to overtures from nazism.
That doesn't mean all 911 Truthers are Nazis - they're not. I am just pointing to the dangers implicit in this convergence upon "believe nothing".
That's why I seek to point out the dangers to 911 Truth of such a convergence. It endangers us all - regardless of one's views about 911. See? And it certainly won't help 911 Truth any! How can it?
Honestly, I think it's a real shame 911 Truth was such an attraction for nazis. Now, of course, i can understand that it was kinda inevitable - and it was there ALL ALONG - from DAY ONE.
Qui bono? NAZISM.
Whatever one thinks about 911, providing any benefit and ecouragement to Nazism can't be tolerated? IMO it has been deeply damaging to 911 truth movement - and is mainly responsible for turning Truth into Troof.
The goals of putative 911 Truth were admirable - truth! But the movement, such as it has become, is unable to deal with - and to exclude - the Nazism within its ranks.
Instead, sadly, 911 Truth Movement acts to protect Nazism.....even if unwittingly.....because it is now so overtaken and infused with it.
I'll cite your use of AFP and WIllis Carto as an example.........though, to your credit, you removed your links to Carto once you'd looked into him some more.
The problem with the 911 movement as a whole is that rather than do what you did, expunge Carto and his fascism, they instinctively protect it - as an attack on their own. The danger there is obvious - not just to 911 Truth but everyone?
Thanks for your brilliant posts, TLNL. You did a good job fleshing out my main points. You're to be commended for studying this topic and being able to articulate what you've learned.
Did Menechem Begin really say those things in the Dees' illustration? I'm thinking of when you and others busted Michael Rivero for astroturfing the Ariel Sharon hoax, the garbage lie that Sharon said Israel owns the US or something.
I'll copy and paste it. I find it hard to believe. One of the most disgusting aspects of this neonazi infested internet is how folks will call Israelis nazis or refer to their asymmetrical warfare against Palestinians as being a holocaust. It diminishes what Hitler and the Nazis were up to. They were trying to wipe out all the Jews. That Larry can't recognise this fundamental fact is astonishing.
From your Rense link of a Dees illustration:
"Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves."
-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (1977-1983) )In a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982)
I'll try to cybersleuth the truth behind this one.
Are the ones who died from disease counted among the 6 million? Just asking.
yes, pretty certain they are as it's impossible to account for the exact nature of every fatality - and the disease of the camps was part and parcel of running death camps and even concentration or work camps.
however - lots of the records stipulate the fates of people......for example some are listed in the death books under "special treatment" (gassing).....some will be under "heartattack". But, if you died of a heart attack from stress and malnutrition and illness whilst you were carting bodies off to the Krema, it's hardly "natural causes" is it?
I am more than happy for people to wonder about how the numbers are arrived at - so long as it is done in goof faith. Perfectly reasonable to want to have these issues clarified......I think it's quite different to holocaust denial which assumes a knowledge that it did not happen - rather than a wish to confirm what is claimed - which is perfectly reasonable.
It's being in possession of the facts and insisting on denial that is the problem. Being interested to find out the real facts isn't a problem. Obviously there's some grey ares there.......so context is important.....as is intent.
Ive seen pictures of big piles of bodies, and have even seen pictures of modern museums that show all the hair they cut off, all the glasses, the shoes, the clothes---but that could have easily been from 4 million, 5 million people. So I ask, are the 6 million verified?
Well, that's the big question, i guess - and the answer is yes, with the proviso that not everything can be known for all sorts of obvious and less obvious reasons.
And there are variations - because of the issues. But the variations lie within definite boundaries.......and are not decided by an ideological commitment as those of the deniers invariably are, but instead are formed from exhaustive academic work and study of the various (and incomplete) records.
I would recommend you go here and have a good root around - to help satisfy yourself, or not:
http://www.nizkor.org/
I recommend the parts on holocaust denial, so that you can learn to recognise it.
But go and look to see if it satisfies your questions any - they do a far better job than I can off the top of my head.
And remember, Nizkor isn't the final word - it's only a single web resource when Holocaust literature runs into libraries full of stuff.
You could never exhaust it. And it's all evidence......
Larry, those captions under the Dees illustrations are from the ADL. Sorry for any confusion.
As for my schtick about the moon being made out of cheese, I only meant that you are the one questioning the Holocaust numbers. It's on you to prove it wasn't anywhere near 6 million. If you're honest in your research, you'll find that there is no merit to the denials, and that all the sources of such are neonazi scum. Thanks for playing. You've helped folks like myself, TLNL, that Canadian blogger, the mysterious S. Boyle, and all others fighting the good fight against neonazi propaganda more than you could ever imagine. As for your equating the Nazi Party with socialism, thanks for that. Not even close. TLNL explained why. Here's a hint. Check out Rex Curry dot net and see how foolish you sound.
That was easy. Thankfully the Begin people's response was at the top of google results amongst mostly crap links. How is Dees not a scumbag, Larry, for posting lies like this? You should cut ties with that asshat. You need to order a new bullshit detector off of EBay. The one you're using is fried.
Correcting A Misquotation Reputedly By Menachem Begin
(excerpt)
First of all, Mr. Begin never said those words and there is no factual basis for that quote. When we searched for the quote, we found that it looped back to the same text by Texe Marrs, who does not say that he is quoting Begin.
Further research at this site showed that the quote was attributed to "Amnon Kapeliouk's article "Begin and the Beasts" (New Statesman, June 25, 1982) which was infamous for having misrepresented some remarks Menachem Begin said in a speech to the Knesset, and there are legitimate sources all over the net that make reference to that incident.
However, the misrepresented quote is not the one cited ("Our race is the Master Race", etc.), but another one entirely (see below). Clearly, someone invented the "Master Race" quote and then tacked on Amnon Kapeliouk as the source, to give it credibility. However, even the REAL (and far less offensive) quote has now been proven to have been misrepresented by Kapeliouk.
The REAL story involving Kapeliouk's article is provided by a media-watch group called CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America), which regularly debunks bogus news reports and misquotes.
Here:
...Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute the derogation of Palestinians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:
Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts, "New Statesman, June 25, 1982
Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:
For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanize the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs
However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was referring not to "the Palestinians" in a general sense but very specifically, he was referring to terrorists who target children within Israel...Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception.....
very kind of you, Socrates, thank you. [blushing]
I have no idea about that Begin quote.
It's despicable........but I don't see why jews (especially nationalist ones) should be expected to be free of racism. No-one else is, so.....why would all jews be?
That isn't meant to justify his saying it - if he did - its despicable. But we can find nationalists of any nation, creed or colour saying such stuff?
It is given as a quote from New Statesman.........a leftwing British bi-monthly magazine, ehich I used to love in the late 80s, early 90s. I came across Pilger there first - it was the left's "The Economist" - a serious, leftwing, literate, intellectual publication.
Undoubtedly it was anti-racist......so I could imagine it heartily condemning such a quote.
But did it appear in NS? Did Begin actually say it? I don't know.
The first reference I found of it was Texe Marrs. Big shock. He doesn't source it.
Anyway - suffice to say it's a disgusting sentiment? If true, an indictment of Israeli democracy and Israeli sentiment. It still wouldn't speak for all Israelis, let alone all jews.
I don't see why anti-semites expect people to condemn Israeli nationalism and racism whilst condoning that of the anti-semites themselves. But of course it's a sleight of hand - they hope one won't recognise their racial prejudices because they encourage one to condemn Israeli/Jewish examples of it.
Why do they think Begin's saying it is supposed to be so reprehensible but Carto's saying it isn't? I never understood that.
Then of course we have the thing of racism being an expression only available to the powerful. Context and all that. Black people can say "nigger" more readily than white people.......which confuses many white people. Some white people think that's unfair.....hypocritical. But that view lacks an understanding of the context - that racism was expressed one way......not back and forth. There was a definite relationship through a definite history - the only one we have. That makes a difference. It shouldn't be a surprise to find a certain racism in jewish people......it's more understandable than it is in caucasians, for example? [not that that makes it "fine"...it's just more nuanced than the simple absolutes we all like, and which are probably fundamental to racism anyway?]
When I think about such things, i always relate it to two definite things:
1 - imagine a small and secluded tribe in the Amazon, threatened by the encroachment of modernity..... What sort of a "racism" is it for them to wish to protect themselves and their identity? I consider that wholly understandable.
2 - my own Welshness, with respect to the English, being British, European, a world citizen. Perhaps surprisingly to some Americans Welsh people (and Scots and Irish) prickle at being called English. We're not. We are however British - as we're from the British Isles - as are the Southern Irish - and we're subjects of the British crown, or citizens of United Kingdom - England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland. We're all European too - even the citizens of Ireland (South).
The Welsh STILL have problems with their imperial neighbours - England.
"The only problem with Scotland is, you have to go through England to get there!" etc.
I moved between the two when I was young - I was considered Welsh when I was in England, and English when in Wales. I saw - and suffered - from the discrimination. That discrimination was all one way, really - anti-english sentiment on the part of the Welsh. Even though I am Welsh. That, i think, has really shaped my view - i saw something of what it is like to be disliked because of one's "race"....though it didn't even include skin colour or other ethnic characteristics.....it was still an insight into the same type of thing.
People here in Wales still occasionally burn down holiday homes........and there is graffiti saying "english go home" - sometimes (ironically enough) written in english, too.
I think i understand perfectly well why people burn down the holiday homes of the "saes" - (english). I don't condemn those reasons.........though burned down cottages in beautiful valleys and on beaches are ugly.
2nd homes push the prices up for local people........and they are exempt from local property taxes - which would be due if local people actually lived all the year in these houses which are empty for all but 3 weeks a year.
That's my own little palestinian experience? not exaclty the same (no historical experiences are?) but it happened here 1000 years ago.......it's insulting to be told I don't care for nor understand the present palestinian position at all when it is all around me here today - though in more settled and less obvious fashion.
Plus, instinctively I support the underdog. (a perhaps British trait - one to be proud of ;)) So that's Palestine......but widen it out a little more and it includes Israel.
But anyway - did Begin say it? And then - what does it matter if he said it in 1983......he isn't there now. One doesn't have to stoop to anti-semitism to criticise Israel or any particular Jew...
One needn't support the British Queen's views about anything to support the British peoples' right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" or whatever? Nor to defend them from calumny?
ah - i see you did better in tracking down that quote than I did (I only did a cursory look before replying)
I think I will email the NewStatesman about it, to see what they say.
Why? Because I used to buy the NewStatesman, and always found it an excellent read - before the internet it was very hard to find anything outside of the capitalist press and the NS was really good, if patchy. It was my first political education, i think. Pilger's columns were excellent - i couldn't get enough.
Now, however, I am finding Pilger occasionally - and certainly Galloway - sometimes guilty of left anti-semitism. The importance of Israel amongst some of her leftwing critics is overstated. That's a form of anti-semitism. How else can it be described? It isn't the jew-hating vileness of the racist far-right, but it is nevertheless an anti-jewish fetish of sorts.
I never used to understand that - at all. So i understand why people don't understand it, sort of. It's not easy....and not obvious. At least I don't think so - and apparently few people do actually understand it.
I never wanted to understand it - I never wanted to know anything about Israel, Jews, whatever. Why would I? But i think it has taught me a lot.....looking at how they are and have been persecuted. It's a universal theme.....a paradigm.
Am I jewish? people always ask. weird. I'm Welsh - no-one ever asks, with a knowing tone, are you Welsh, wink wink?
Hasn't everyone heard of the Tafiosa?
Hmmmmmm, TLNL can use profanity over and over again and yet Socrates says not ONE WORD about it and his posts do not get deleted.
In fact Socrates, THIS was your response to TLNL's potty mouth:
"Thanks for your brilliant posts, TLNL."
Hmmmmmm.
Here are samples of TLNL's gutter mouth:
"It's fucking obvious?"
"Actually, having examined it, i am pretty fucked off that no-one ever says "Are you Welsh?" It's always are you fucking jewish?!"
"Fucking joooos! always at the centre of all these conspiracies!"
"I can't even speak fucking Welsh! How unfair is that?"
Yet, his posts remain. Hmmmmm. My oh my, how the double standards are a-flying!
"There are enormous amounts of evidence - from all sorts of different sources. They build an incontestable account - with incredible detail at points. But not all details are always present, obviously."
ME: ARE all the names of the 6 million verified?
YOU: I'm pretty certain they are not.
So, in other words...youre just GUESSING? Ahhhhh, I see how this works. When YOU try to make your point, you can GUESS and still claim you are a beacon of truth. But I present fact after fact after fact, and Im a "conspiracy theorist"?? PERFECT.
You are a bonified WINGNUT. You may just be Mayor of Wingnuttia!
I also find it quite interesting that when TLNL asks me for details and I PROVIDE them, his response is always "Rubbish". Intelligent response!! I think a 3rd grader would have given me a more detailed, intelligent response! How much time and thought did it take to come up with "Rubbish"???
"As for my schtick about the moon being made out of cheese, I only meant that you are the one questioning the Holocaust numbers. It's on you to prove it wasn't anywhere near 6 million."
Socrates, you have a reading deficiency. I NEVER EVER said I questioned the numbers, I said "whats WRONG with questioning them?"----a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT comment.
Its on ME to prove it WASNT 6 million? So, people could have just thrown ANY number out there as the official story and it would have been accepted? If they had used 8 million as the number, are you saying I would have had to prove 2 million people DIDNT die that they said died??? You are Lord of Galaxy Wingnuttia!
How about governments TELLING THE TRUTH and giving us the FACTS when they issue official stories? I shouldnt EVER have to question ANYTHING. I would LIKE to believe my government doesnt LIE to me, but such is the reality of life, people and yes, GOVERNMENTS lie!
What I find simply amazing is the fact that when we were discussing 9-11, I CONSTANTLY proved the official story was wrong [at LEAST there IS a cover-up] and yet you two clowns still pimped for the official story, trusting in it without question or reservation. So, Socrates, you saying "It's on you to prove it wasnt 6 million..." is your way of saying that if I claim there's a lie told, then its MY job to point out the lie. Ive done that, COUNTLESS times on the 9-11 issue, and whats your response? Calling me NAMES, "wingnut", "kook", the list goes on....
I admit 100% that there is a BIG difference in claiming 9-11 was an inside job and saying that there is a COVER-UP taking place by our government. The two CAN go hand in hand, but they could also be seperate. In other words, one doesnt mean the other, but it COULD.
Theres is massive amounts of evidence 9-11 is COVERED UP---NO ONE can deny that. But its another thing to say that it's an inside job. I admit that...BUT, the difference between me and you guys is that I have ACCEPTED that the cover-up in 9-11 is BECAUSE it was an inside job---at the VERY VERY LEAST we had some hand in it.
Ask yourself: What would be the REASONS for the CLEAR, UNDENIABLE cover-up in 9-11 by our government BUT for it being an inside job? I cant think of one. You cannot deny there IS a cover-up. The hundreds of questions not asked, the lack of evidence [plane parts] at crash sites, physical evidence [debris] being taken away and not examined, the CLEAR ommissions of certain topics [building 7 not discussed in the 9-11 commission], the complete exclusion of ANYONE that heard explosions inside the buildings from being allowed to testify, the bold-faced LIES told by our government and by "debunkers" like Popular Mechanics---geesh, the list goes on and on.
Yet, even AFTER all the lies, omissions, anomolies....people like YOU two STILL say "its on you to prove otherwise"---unbelievable.
Hi TLNL, no problem initially missing my post debunking the Dees illustration use of a Begin hoax quote. We were posting around the same time.
You ever read The Progressive? I used to have a subscription to that. Was pretty good. Though not much volume to it. Zinn used to be featured by them. Maybe Molly Ivins too. Was a long time ago. I admit I'm no longer a news freak like I was in the old days.
These people are hypocrites. Keep in mind how Rivero's friend Tinoire played me. I caught someone using the phrase Jewboy. She said I lied. When the thread was located by someone at another forum, she deleted the whole thing. She admitted she's military intelligence. There's a reason she has disappeared. She got outed as a Hal Turner of the left. I think she and Rivero and all these others like Stirling-breath are paid to "draw out the crazies," as Hal puts it.
I think only people who are membera of an in-group should be able to use the stereotypes. It can be a way for them to take ownership of the oppression; In a way, to mock those who would speak so inhumanely. In a perfect world, none of us would sound like racists and haters.
There are good and bad in every "group" of people. That's common sense.
An Irish friend once told me that if you went back far enough, the Irish and the English were the same people. That Irish slaves were taken to the Dominican Republic as slaves, that the English characterised them as animals, etc., shows that it is not always skin pigment alone which accounts for bigotry. Racism has been the biggest problem. Just look at what was done to Africa. Look at how the Native Americans were robbed of America, illness put on their blankets, things like that. It's a disgusting history we humans share. That the Holocaust is still fresh in our memories, that alone should get these neonazis to stop calling Israelis nazis and perpetrators of a holocaust. But we're dealing with idiots. They don't get it that they are actually making it more difficult for the Palestinians to attain justice. As you pointed out, the idea of wiping out all Jewish people is not a new one. Holocaust denial serves to turn this historic truth into something contrived.
Here we refer to your Welsh analogy to the plight of Palestinians gentrification. Though like yourself, I'm not saying it's anything near what is going on in the Middle East.
The neonazis are desperate to spin us as Mossad and/or GIYUS. It's just another form of denial.
I actually don't mind anyone keeping a strong magnifying glass on Israeli policies towards Palestine. It is what it is. I would look at each journalist on a case by case basis. I mean, if we start saying they have a fetish of attacking Israeli policies, the same could be said of us going after right woos left.
I know nothing about Wales. I apologise for that. I do know someone from Wales, well sort of, in yourself!
But yes, there is a specific group that feels the need to shove the Joooos into their lame, global conspiracy theories. I long for the days when that kind of shite would only come out mostly from obvious losers like Stormfront. I really only started to get into exposing c**** like Rivero when it was shoved in my face. I saw too many right wingers like him being praised by those alleging to be from the left. Not just Tinoire.
We have had an impact. No doubt. We have been able to get the word out. I got through to this kid donkeytale. At first he thought I was a crazy focker like was being spun. But then he saw what I was on about with BradBlog and Agent99. He started to look into Larouche. He's starting to see how conspiracy theories have destroyed the internet. He calls it the whiteysphere; A variation on Francis Holland's Whiteosphere.
Good point Larry. TLNL, please try to keep the curse words to a minimum. But Larry, my problem isn't with a random curse word once in a while. My problem with you was how you use them in frothing verbal assaults on others. Calling people c***suckers and assmunchers and those kinds of posts are not wanted here. I would like it if TLNL tried to watch his language, yet clearly there is a big difference between his cursing and yours.
Ahhhhh, yes, now there's a DIFFERENCE in the "type" of profanity used.
"The Progressive"?? The magazine that features Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn [until his death] as 2 of its contributors? These are two of the biggest social cowards of our day. Thy claim to be intellectuals but dismiss false flag operations like theyre no big deal.
Shall I offer some quotes?
Zinn:
[on 9-11]
"I don’t know much about the situation and the truth is, I don’t care that much about it, that’s passed….that’s a diversion from what we really have to do"
"“I have said that what happened on 9/11 deserves to be investigated more than it has been because I don’t accept and believe official investigations and official reports.
But having said that, and I want to say that this has really annoyed a lot of people, but why not, and I will annoy more people by saying that I think there are many people who have become fanatics about 9/11. By fanatics I mean, they think we should drop everything and just concentrate our energies on finding out what happened on 9/11.
I don’t think the question of what really happened on 9/11 is the most important question we can ask.”
“To tell a movement of citizens in the United States that this is something that we really have to make an issue of, I don’t believe it because we don’t need what happened on 9/11, we don’t need that to tell us about the crimes of the Bush administration.
I believe there are certain things that happen in history and certainly questions that are asked that divert us from the important things that we have to do at hand.
The truth is I don’t think anyone will ever really know what happened on 9/11 just as I don’t think anyone will really know who killed John F. Kennedy, and there are a lot of people who wasted a huge amount of time working on something that did not have any practical political significance.”
“I don’t know enough about it (the 9/11 conspiracy) and the truth is I don’t much care, that’s past.”
In other words: "I dont know if 9-11 was an inside job, and who cares if it was?"
Jesus!
Chomsky:
“The concept of “false flag operation” is not a very serious one, in my opinion. None of the examples you describe, or any other in history, has even a remote resemblance to the alleged 9/11 conspiracy. I’d suggest that you look at each of them carefully.”
[on 9-11]
"That’s an internet theory and it’s hopelessly implausible. Hopelessly implausible. So hopelessly implausible I don’t see any point in talking about it"
Both Chomsky and Zinn also do not believe in the conspiracy to kill JFK, both nutballs actually believe in the single bullet theory. Talk about your nutball theories!! How could JFK have been killed by someone who was standing BEHIND him [Oswald in the Book Depository] when you see JFK's head go backward and to the left when he is shot? Back and to the left indicates a shooter who is standing FRONT and to his RIGHT.
Its clear now why you two are the way you are [cowards]. You read articles from cowards.
Oh and by the way, I thought that since you two hate Hitler and the Nazi's so much, false flag terror would be important to you, since the bombing of the Reichstag was a false flag terror event that was done to invade Poland and create the Enabling Act and begin Hitler's attempted takeover that led to 6 million murdered Jews.
But, yet, you follow people like Zinn and Chomsky who think that false flag terror is NO BIG DEAL and is not even worth their time to talk about.
I asked you two for EVIDENCE------EVIDENCE that Dees COMPLETELY DENIES THE HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPEND. And what I mean by "COMPLETELY DENIES" is the accusation you two are making that Dees is saying NOT ONE MURDER occurred.
EVIDENCE
On the bad language.....mine was obviously(?) something of a parody - and the words were used to accentuate the effect - to express what I wanted it to. The words weren't thrown insultingly at anyone - though I was (obviosuly?) mocking the way peoples' own personal resentments can be expressed through hatred of jews.
This is in distinct contrast to your use of sharp language, Larry - you use it insultingly, directly spitting out nastiness at actual posters.....people whom are actually engaged with you - often in complete disagreement, but so what? You can't disagree without getting all fired up and getting nasty. And all your seemingly homophobic/homo-erotic insults and taunting? Dumb.
Hey asswipe! Dickface! blah blah blah. You just can't help yourself, can you?
As for doing it here.....well, I think I thought I was posting at mine. So, apologies to Socrates on that score. Wooopsie! ;)
The basic point is this, i think:
Although deniers insist that the idea of the Holocaust as myth is a reasonable topic of debate, it is clear, in light of the overwhelming weight of evidence that the Holocaust happened, that the debate the deniers proffer is more about antisemitism and hate politics than it is about history.
That's from the people who Von Brunn tried killing.....the folks at the Holocaust Museum. [Didn't you write about Von Brunn, Larry?]
Why do people engage in holocaust denial - the reasons they give are instructive. It should be easy to see how Rense and Jones and Rivero et al fit into this scheme - and why they appear to be the fringe of something which leads right into neo-nazism:
Holocaust deniers argue that reports of the Holocaust are really part of a vast shadowy plot to make the white, western world feel guilty and to advance the interest of Jews. Even at the time of the Holocaust, some people in the United States thought reports of German massacres of Jewish civilians were actually propaganda reports designed to force the government to grant Jews special treatment and consideration.
Many people who deny the Holocaust argue that the supposed “hoax” served above all the interests of the State of Israel. Holocaust denial is, for these people, also an attack on the legitimacy of the State of Israel. Finally, others deny the Holocaust because they want to see a resurgence of Nazi racism. They insist that Nazism was a good political philosophy and that only “negative” press resulting from reports of the genocide the Nazis perpetrated prevent a revival of the Nazi movement today. They deny the Holocaust so that they can attract followers to a new Nazi movement.
Holocaust denial, then, unites a broad range of radical right-wing hate groups in the United States and elsewhere, ranging from Ku Klux Klan segregationists to skinheads seeking to revive Nazism to radical Muslim activists seeking to destroy Israel.
Holocaust deniers want to debate the very existence of the Holocaust as a historical event. They want above all to be seen as legitimate scholars arguing a historical point. They crave attention, a public platform to air what they refer to as “the other side of the issue.” Because legitimate scholars do not doubt that the Holocaust happened, such assertions play no role in historical debates.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007273
What a crew.
"Under your terms, even a claim that 1 person died in the Holocaust would fail to qualify for your definition of "holocaust denial"."
YOURE RIGHT! Because ONE person is NOT a holocaust!
Geeshhhh!
By the way---LOVE how you completely IGNORED the Zinn and Chomsky quotes---especially the ones about them saying false flag attacks are no big deal---DESPITE the FACT that the bombing of Hitler's Reichstag building in 1933 is FACT that it was a false flag attack---and that is the very thing that set in motion Hitler's rise to power-----but you completely IGNORED the quotes. Responding to them would have forced you to acknowledge that people YOU FOLLOW who contribute to The Progressive completely DISMISS false flag terror as being important.
By the way, David Dees responded to my email. This is his verbatim response. I am not defending it or condemning it, I am simply relaying it to you:
"There were precise records kept by the germans, these were stolen by the russians, then released in 1989
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p265_Weber.html
also the red cross international after years of being allowed to visit the camps wrote their estimate of 260,000 deaths
http://musliminsuffer.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/official-records-from-international-red-cross-prove-holocaust-was-a-fraud/
and consider that only forty per cent were jewish, is that really a holocaust?
People don't want to investigate, they love the documentaries made by hollywood, 6 mil,hahaha, F em. It is another zionist scam like all the others. With no auschwitz there would have been no Israel, tell your friends to wake up."
Thanks for getting that quote from Dees. That proves he is a Holocaust denier.
I agree with you on the JFK Assassination. Back and to the left. There were witnesses in the Grassy Knoll, not just a few, a significant number. I'm not sure why some are so vehement in turning the JFK Assassination into a cut and dried case of a lone assassin. I think there are some people who are closed-minded debunkers. They look at everything like a debate club. They think it is win or lose. They are like attorneys. Evidence be damned. They're playing for a conviction or an aquittal.
I don't think you can really blame Chomsky and Zinn for not getting into 9/11 conspiracy theory. I'm glad to see you're not totally fixated on it, and I do offer you respect for passionately trying to get to the bottom of it.
How's that for some queenie disinfo? p:>
I have a movie called JFK 2 [not a sequel to JFK]--where they say very interesting things. One thing they said was that along the streets of Dallas that day, the crowd was 10 rows thick nearly the entire stretch of JFK's route in the motorcade---but when he reached the grassy knoll area---hardly anyone there. Could this have been orchestrated by the real assassins that no one was supposed to be standing there because they would be blocking the shots at Kennedy? Interesting thought.
You dont have any thoughts on the links that Dees sent me?
Socrates, you admitted that you follow Zinn and Chomsky [contributors to The Progressive], and they completely dismiss a conspiracy in the JFK assassination and say it was just Oswald alone. Would it be unfair to say youre just as big a nut that you claim Dees is for questioning the OFFICIAL story?
Oswald acting alone is the OFFICIAL story, and you admitted that you dont believe it. So, its ok for YOU to question and dismiss official stories but if anyone else does, they're a "nutball"?
Hmmmmmmm.
"I do offer you respect for passionately trying to get to the bottom of it."
Posted on the thread under a story titled, "National Wingnut Appreciation Day" of which I am mentioned in 80% of the story. "Offer me respect"-----ha!
Larry on Dees' reply:
I am not defending it or condemning it
It deserves total condemnation. How can you fail to do it? You don't know enough about the facts to do so? Well, ok. But - it deserves condemnation. It's despicable.
I suspect Dees didn't know you'd be printing that. Did you tell him you'd print it publicly?
It would have been unethical not to have told him so......but nevertheless, I am pleased you got that quote out of him. IT shows his denials of anti-semitism at Rense are a load of obscurantist hogwash.
He's cosying up to - and accepting - then redistributing - the words of Nazis, and their apologists. To people whom are probably largely wholly ignorant of the facts of the holocaust.
PEople like Dees are responsible for injecting fascism into 911 Truth, and for mixing the two together.....unbeknownst to much of their audience.
Indeed - people such as Dees pretend to their audience that they hold a position that's anti-nazi, and anti-racist etc.........even as they go about publishing and promoting the ideas and false history of committed ideological racists and nazis. This is how they function as a Trojan horse - to insinuate nazism into 911 Truth.
And all under the (lie) of the banner that they are anti-nazis....pro-peace....pro-liberty....
How can they say that when they are promoting Nazis and their efforts at legitimising Nazism?
And then we're supposed to accept that they aren't working "for left or right".......!
Oh right - nazism isn't left or right?
Anyway - it hardly matters whether we call nazism left or right - these people are engaged in a big dangerous hate-filled swindle.
Dees' use of the IHR - and of THE ICRC is very revealing : it's a staple of holocaust denial.
Lipstadt addresses the
primary issue - did the ICRC deny the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz?
"According to him [Harwood] [the ICRC report] demonstrated that the
International Red Cross had found no evidence 'whatever' in camps
in Axis-occupied Europe of a 'deliberate policy to exterminate the
Jews.'<47> Harwood contended that in all its sixteen hundred pages
the report failed to make any mention of 'such a thing as a gas
chamber.' Though the
ICRC admitted that Jews had suffered rigors and privations, as had
many other wartime nationalities, 'its complete silence on the
subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six
Million legend.'<48>
Harwood could make this claim only by ignoring key sections of the
ICRC report. The Red Cross was absolutely specific about the Jews'
fate. It made reference to the Nazi attempt to annihilate them,
observing that under Nazi rule Jews had been transformed into
'outcasts condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny,
persecution and _systematic extermination_.'<49> ...Most important,
the ICRC specifically delineated how systematic annihilation was
carried out: 'They were penned into concentration camps and
ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave
brutalities and sent to _death camps_ without anyone being allowed
to intervene in those matters.'<50> These were not the ICRC's only
references to death camps or systematic annihilation." (Lipstadt,
114-115)
It is important to understand the mechanics commonly employed by
Holocaust deniers, including the simple-minded Mr. Kuschel. When a
document like the ICRC report is examined, any quote which would, when
presented out of context, support the denial claims, is embraced like
a long lost friend. On the other hand, any quote which refutes their
claims, or even casts doubt about them, is simply ignored. This
technique is essential to the entire denial industry, since an honest
examination of the evidence absolutely destroys their position.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/lipstadt.deborah/ftp.py?people/l/lipstadt.deborah//citations/red-cross.report
The IRC delegates were expressly forbidden from visiting the Auschwitz
Krema, where the gas chambers and creamation facilities were. They were
taken only to those parts of the huge complex which housed prisoners who
were not to be exterminated. Some Allied POWs were held in Auschwitz, in
reasonable conditions, but they knew about the gassings and mentioned
them to the IRC delegate. For more information, read "The Report of the
International Committee of the Red Cross ICRC) on its Activities during
the Second World War" (Geneva, 1948).
In addition, former SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Hans M nch confirmed this
in his testimony at the International Nuremberg Trial (Trial of the
Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. VIII, p. 313-321). He said:
I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
commissions of
the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was
able to
ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to
conduct these
guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around
did not
see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown
only
and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks,
particularly
block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours
and that
were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that
had sheets
on them, and well-functioning washrooms.
Survivor, Fanie Fennelon of the Women's Orchestra in Auschwitz tells a
story about an IRC visit in her book "Playing for Time". She tells how
the prisoners were issued new blankets and other things just before the
visit. Those blankets were taken away the day the IRC left.
The ICRC report is very clear regarding Nazi atrocities; for instance,
in page 641 of vol. 1, the report states that the Jews were "outcasts
condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution,
and systematic extermination". It goes on to say "they were penned
into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labor,
subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps". Another
verbatim quote is the following (in the same page):
"During the period in September 1940, when the 'Iron Guard' supported
by the Gestapo and the German SS had seized power, the Jews had been
subjected to persecution and deported to death camps".
and from vol. 2, page 514
"In Germany and her satellite countries, the lot of the civilians
belonging to this group was by far the worst. Subjected as they were
to a discriminatory regime, which aimed more or less openly at their
extermination, they were unable to procure the necessities of life".
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?orgs/international/red-cross/extermination
sorry for the wall of text - but....refuting lies is more time-consuming than making them.
Dees: People don't want to investigate, they love the documentaries made by hollywood, 6 mil,hahaha, F em.
Oh my. What "documentaries made by Hollywood" have I ever watched? What documentaries is he on about?
My sources are the likes of Gita Sereny's Albert Speer stuff..... Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.....not fucking Hollywood.
What are Dees' sources? Nazi apologists like the IHR!
Hilarious.
Who is it that doesn't want to investigate? Dees - he rejects all the research that has already been done. He denies all the researches that have been done - what they have found - and the fact they all coalesce around a certain inescapable reality - that the holocaust was real.
So who is it that obviously hasn't really done any research? Dees.
What a despicable reply he gave.
I hope you are happy promoting such people and such ideas, Larry.
Instead you have been spending your time defending him.........now you have resorted to supposed ambivalence.....you don't "defend or condemn" what he said. Oh right......you're neutral? Well, in that case you are with the deniers, the nazi apologists, the nazi promoters, the anti-semites, the racists and the haters.
Did you see Dees' Christmas card to Zundel?
And the picture of Hitler - with FRAMED written above it?
We have a picture of Dees building up - and it ain't pretty. But it is coherent.....surely enough for even Larry Simons to comprehend.
----------
On Dees' second quote.......which I have seen before......
1) it comes from a muslim website. we can look into them later.
2) the source the website gives is "Hal Turner".
Well........la de dah.
Plus, look at the document.....there are at least two different fonts used - used to annotate the document with English titles. I have never verified this is a genuine document.
But even granting it is genuine....what is it exactly? And it simply does not invalidate the ICRC reports themselves nor the view of the ICRC which has NEVER subscribed to denying to the holocaust.
So.......we have Dees sources - the IHR and Hal Turner (by way of (an apparently) extremist mulsim website. )
fantastic. and the dude mocks genuine sources?
Dees is really saying "I deny the Holocaust because a racist, violent agent provocateur affiliated with the FBI told me it wasn't true!
What's more I have had it all confirmed by various Nazi and racist groups! So I believe it."
??????
It's good enough for Dees - it's good enough for Larry.
This is how people have WRECKED and DISCREDITED 911 Truth Larry.
If this is the methodology Dees uses to find his position on 911.....and surely it is......then we have no reason to be surprised to find the same dishonesty and the motivation for it in both his holocaust views AND those on 911.
Some Nazis told him that "the Jews did it".......so it must be true. Amazing research.
If one believes Nazis that the holocaust is "a jewish lie"....then why not believe the same about 911? Far easier to believe? And if one believes 911 was all a huge lie, then one is surely open to believing the Holocaust was too.....especially when the same people are telling you both things, whilst claiming they are anti-racist, pro-peace, libertarians....
911 Truth is used as a confidence trick by the far-right.....to build allegiances.....via which they can recruit and disseminate their other stuff.....such as holocaust denial.
Go and look at Dees' immigration pictures? There's a racism dripping off there.....even as he puts a La Raza tshirt right in front of the viewer. Again - that's done to misdirect anti-racism.......by painting the immigrants as racist.....even as Dees' portrayal of immigrants drips with its own symbols of racial prejudice.
Same funk as Alex Jones uses......he claims he is anti-racist because he opposes what he considers to be the immigrants' racism - La Raza.
Opposing anti-white racism is not necessarily anti-racist. But it can be passed off as it. Right?
Just like anti-semitism can pass off as "antiZionism". Just like holocaust denial can (try) to pass off as "scholarship".
And Nazism tries to pass itself off as "libertarianism"....anti-fascism, even.
Shermer looked into both Holocaust Denial, and then later, 911 Truth. He stated he found similarities in the methodology.......what he seemed to miss was that the similarities run deeper, and have a very good cause - the SAME PEOPLE are responsible for both.
The far-right has certainly been trying to make them "the same thing".....and to move people from one to the other.....to legitimise Nazism on the one hand, and on the other to delegitimise and demonise Jews, Zionism, Israel.
They are exploiting well-meaning people whom probably have essentially anti-fascist political views. Undercover of suspicion and fear about 911.....they can - and have - insinuated their fascism. Of course this is corrupting to any movement....and 911 Truth is no exception.
The only option open to "legitimate" Truthers is to distance themselves from the fascism within their own ranks - to disassociate themselves from it, and to expunge it.
911 Truth fails to do this. Your deletion of links to Willis Carto are one of the only examples I have ever seen of a Truther recognising any of this. The usual response is wholly defensive.....and then aggressive. Censorship and demonisation and denunciations follow. Same old routine - every time.
That doesn't reveal a particularly truth-bound and honourable, ethical movement. Quite the opposite, right?
I don't care about 911 much - with that I am with Chomsky and Zinn. But Truthers should care.....and if they want to look after their movement and actually hope to get anywhere, they need to expel the fascism within their ranks. However, they reveal they have absolutely no willingness to do so....let alone embark on the task itself.
One might ask why such defensiveness and stonewalling over expelling fascism.....? The obvious answer must be that the movement is (already) essentially "fascist". Whether consciously so, or not.....it functions as if that's the case.
hence Troof - not Truth.
From DEES' link
SIX MILLION JEWS DID NOT DIE; THE WHOLE CLAIM WAS A COMPLETE FABRICATION
Dees doesn't have to say it himself - he can just link to others whom do.
OK - Larry?
The next piece on that "Mulsim" website which Dees linked to is the exact same claims repudiated by Lipstadt and which I linked to (at Nizkor).
DEES provided the link, Larry - to you!
It says:
Here now, for all the world to see, is a scanned image of an Official International Red Cross document proving the so-called “Holocaust” never happened. Jews around the world intentionally lied for the purpose of gaining emotional and business advantages for themselves. They committed willful, criminal FRAUD upon millions around the world!
“The Holocaust” is the greatest lie ever told. Millions of dollars have been paid out to “holocaust survivors” and their descendants for something that DID NOT HAPPEN.
OK Larry?
The next article reiterates the classic holocaust denying LIE which I posted earlier -
In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews.
As we have seen, this is simply untrue.
However - Dees pointed you to this stuff...his source....for you......and it clearly (even if wrongly) states "no evidence whatsoever for a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews".
None whatsoever. NONE WHATSOEVER. IT NEVER HAPPENED.
Hardly 4 million is it? Let alone is it 6 million. It says NONE NONE NONE. It also says "IT NEVER HAPPENED".
OK Larry?
Rereading this thread, I notice Larry's comment.......he actually says something which totally contradicts his later position:
I dont think in general that holocaust deniers completely dismiss people were killed. I think they dismiss it was 6 million.
Later on Larry was insisting only people who totally denied the holocaust could be called holocaust deniers.
Earlier he clearly says he believes "in general holocaust deniers...dismiss it was 6 million" yet later he insists only COMPLETE DENIAL can be considered holocaust denial, else it's only minmisation.
Larry eventually demanded evidence that Dees denied the entire holocaust - the 4m variant didn't suffice....that only counted as "minimisation".
Dees personally provided Larry with links to material and sources which clearly deny the holocaust - completely.
So, we've been right around the block. The evidence seems incontrovertible that - as Socrates said - Larry Simons promotes holocaust denial (and anti-semitism, and the legitimation of nazism and Hitler).
Larry does this by positively endorsing, promoting and defending people such as David Dees and his "artwork".
Himmler's "We Will Never Speak of It Publicly" Speech
Excerpt from a speech given to SS leaders 4 October 1943 in Posen [source: Noakes, J. and Pridham, G. Nazism: A Documentary Reader. Volume III "Foreign Policy, War and Racial Extermination" Exeter, UK: University of Exeter Press, 1984, pages 1199-1200]
______________________________________
". . . I also want to talk to you quite frankly about a very grave matter. We can talk about it quite frankly among ourselves and yet we will never speak of it publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on 30 June 1934 [the Röhm Purge] to do our duty as we were bidden, and to stand comrades who had lapsed up against the wall and shoot them, so we have never spoken about it and will never speak of it. It was that tact which is a matter of course, and which I am glad to say is inherent in us, that made us never discuss it among ourselves, never speak of it. It appalled everyone, and yet every was certain that he would do it the next time if such orders should be issued and it should be necessary.
"I am referring to the Jewish evacuation programme, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things which are easy to talk about. 'The Jewish people will be exterminated', says every party comrade, 'It's clear, it's in our programme. Elimination of the Jews, extermination and we'll do it.' And then they come along, the worthy eighty million Germans, and each one of them produces his decent Jew. It's clear the others are swine, but this one is a fine Jew. Not one of those who talk like that has watched it happening, not one of them has been through it. Most of you will know what it means when a hundred corpses are lying side by side, or five hundred or a thousand are lying there. To have stuck it out and--apart from a few exceptions due to human weakness--to have remained decent, that is what has made us tough. This is a glorious page in our history, and one that has never been written and can never be written.
--------------------------
see - it has to be understood that there is plenty of evidence that the Nazis were quite conscious of the need to provide plausible deniability to the Holocaust. As central to their whole scheme as it was, and however proud of it they were, they recognised the need to keep it highly secret, and care was taken to avoid writing down too much of it. Documented efforts were made to cover-up their crimes.....the Nazis were ruthless, but they weren't stupid. They were kinda infamous, and proud of their propaganda skill. Such deceit is central to Hitler's method - if you go and look. The invasion of Poland - and the radio station hoaxes used to justify it....for example. Obviously a lot of such effort went into covering up the holocaust - and still does today - doubtless sometimes by networks of former Nazis whom used the ratrun to escape to S America etc.
people who accept holocaust denial as legitimate history are fools, and victims of Nazi propaganda. Whatever they might think of themselves.....
It's all an elaborate charade - with the ideological motivation to legitimise Nazism, and to delegitimise and demonise jews/zionism/israel. The targets are interchangeable, and each serve the cause.
I don't care if people deny that is what they are up to. The facts speak for themselves.
One doesn't have to consciously work for a goal to contribute to attaining it. Useful idiots.
And it's very easy to lie. In the short term, at least. When we look at Dees' output, and his "sources", and their holocaust denial and connections to organised fascism and Nazism, then there's little room for argument that Dees is not supporting the rehabilitation of Nazism. Maybe he's just a bit dim and doesn't realise the implications of what he's doing? Sure..... but I simply don't believe it. I can't see why anyone would.
But Dees' self-opinion is hardly material : who cares if he believes he is a Nazi or not? Likely he believes he isn't.
However, whether Dees understands it (or not) - we know that his sources have many and long-standing affiliations with Nazism - even with former serving officers. We know he is peddling lies put about by people who are working alongside Nazis - "friends" - to legitimise and promote Nazi perspectives - whilst indicting Jews for perpetrating the holocaust (as a fraud).
Whoo cares what Dees says about himself when we have such a panoply of facts indicting him?
I really couldn't give a hoot about what Dees says - we can look at the record of his "art" and its content, his associations, his sources and their claims......and they build up a picture wholly at variance with what Dees appears to like to believe about himself - and which he seems to want others to believe about himself.
I'm interested in what you think about Dees' use of the Willis Carto-founded IHR - a holocaust denial organisation?
And his use of Hal Turner.....to claim "it never happened"?
You lend Dees an audience when you promote him - you offer any legitimacy you may have to Dees by endorsing his work. You also shackle yourself with the same discredit deserved by Dees, and are guilty of the same charges against Dees - by dint of promoting and legitimising him and his views.
You simply can't abjure all responsibility, Larry. You are functioning to promote Dees' work.....so whilst you claim to not be a holocaust denier, you promote people who are AND their holocaust denial AND their insinuation of fascism into discourse. Therefore Socrates' charges are true.
i'll shutup for a while.
:D
When's Larry going to snap out of it? First he's saying that Dees isn't denying the Holocaust, just the numbers. Well, Dees says there were 260,000 deaths and only 40% of them were Jewish. He is a Holocaust denier. If Larry can't recognise this, then it's apparently impossible to discuss anything too in depth with this cat.
TLNL, I don't think Dees realised his admission to being a Holocaust denier would become public. He told Larry to tell "his friends" to wake up. Dees got played. Thankfully, Larry appears to be an honest dude able to get this scoop, though obviously he's very slow on the intake. It'd be nice if he said, ok, you guys are right on this one, I'll stop pimping for Holocaust deniers like David Dees. He truly is. One link goes to the Dees Internet Shop, the other to his homepage. Not cool.
And why's Larry so offended about being called a wingnut? I called myself a moonbat. As the great philosopher Rodney King once said, "Why can't we all just get along?"
Excellent work Earl of Last Names. Maybe Lord Simons will have this for a retort. A kid can dream.
OK guys, you win. I've taken down the Dees links at my blog. It doesn't mean I totally agree with the numbers of The Holocaust. But for Dees to outright deny it is wrong.
Then he'll probably yell at me for not replying to his post on the JFK Assassination.
"TLNL, I don't think Dees realised his admission to being a Holocaust denier would become public. He told Larry to tell "his friends" to wake up. Dees got played."
Youre wrong Socrates, because in my email to HIM, I said "Im arguing with a couple of wingnuts on a blog about you...", so he knows you arent my FRIENDS. He was just being facetious.
Oh, and Socrates, Im not going to yell at you for ignoring the JFK stuff I said in regards to Zinn and Chomsky---i know EXACTLY why you ignord it--and so do you.
Oh and TLNL, if you think I actually sat here and read your 50 posts, youre mistaken, I didnt read one word of any of them---not a word.
Socrates, another thing you ignored was my post to you asking if you looked at the links Dees sent in his email. Did you view them?
Dees said in his email that 260,000 are accounted for---that is STILL a "massive slaughter". He never, NEVER said it was ZERO.
"Rereading this thread, I notice Larry's comment.......he actually says something which totally contradicts his later position:
I dont think in general that holocaust deniers completely dismiss people were killed. I think they dismiss it was 6 million.
Later on Larry was insisting only people who totally denied the holocaust could be called holocaust deniers."
I love how TLNL plays with my words when he knows EXACTLY what I mean. When I originally said "holocaust deniers" in the top paragraph, I was referring to people that are CALLED "holocaust deniers". A 1st grader would have known that's what I was referring to, but since TLNL cannot beat me in facts with HONEST comments, he has to spin and distort their meaning to go along with his agenda.
"your replies prove you are not worth bothering with Larry."
LOL, because I wont be fooled by your distortions and spin and I call you out on it????
YOU were saying "holocaust deniers" OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER an OVER---so when I replied and said:
"I dont think in general that holocaust deniers completely dismiss people were killed. I think they dismiss it was 6 million"-----I was simply repeating YOUR usage of the term "holocaust deniers" so that I could reference what YOU said!!
How else would I label them if Im referencing something YOU said. I cant attribute a different label to them if Im referencing the term YOU used! God, are you THAT dumb???
Stupid question.
Thats the same shit you pulled on m with the terms "left wing" and "right wing". I was referencing the terminology that OTHERS use to identify them and because I referenced the same term, you accused ME of using that term myself in labeling them that when I was trying to say there's a false left/right paradigm. Word trickery and spin wont work on me pal, and because I call your ass out on it, you cower in the corner like a little girl who just pissed herself and cry like a baby.
Gonna address my comments about Zinn and Chomsky?? Of course youre not!
Answer this question TLNL. Its an easy one, you can handle it.
Is 260,000 deaths a massive slaughter?
Just say YES or NO. I have NO interest in any commentary. Just say YES or NO.
Holocaust denial consists of claims that the genocide of Jews during World War II—usually referred to as the Holocaust—did not occur at all, or that it did not happen in the manner or to the extent historically recognized.
Holocaust denial is sometimes referred to as "negationism"
negationism ... attempts to deny the reality of acknowledged facts.
Negationism means the denial of historical crimes against humanity. It is not a reinterpretation of known facts, but the denial of known facts.
The key claims of Holocaust deniers include:
"The figure of 5 to 7 million Jewish deaths is a gross exaggeration, and the actual number is an order of magnitude lower."
From jewish virtual library - a definition and the connection with Willis Carto:
1. What is Holocaust denial?
Holocaust denial is a propaganda movement active in the United States, Canada and Western Europe which seeks to deny the reality of the Nazi regime's systematic mass murder of 6 million Jews in Europe during World War II.
....as an organized propaganda movement, Holocaust "revisionism" took root in 1979 when Willis Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby - the largest anti-Jewish propaganda organization in the United States - incorporated the Institute for Historical Review (IHR). The IHR is a pseudo-academic enterprise in which professors with no credentials in history (for example, the late Revilo P. Oliver was a retired University of Illinois Classics teacher; Robert Faurisson earned a Ph.D. in literature from the University of Lyon; Arthur Butz is an engineer at Northwestern University), writers without formal academic certification (such as David Irving, Henri Roques and Bradley Smith), and career anti-Semites (such as Mark Weber, Ernst Zündel and the late David McCalden) convene to develop new outlets for their anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and, for some, pro, Nazi beliefs.
IHR has tapped into an international network of propagandists who write for the group's Journal of Historical Review (JHR) and meet at its more-or-less annual conventions. The leading activists affiliated with IHR have included Mark Weber, Bradley Smith and Fred Leuchter (USA); Ernst Zündel (Canada); David Irving (England); Robert Faurisson (France); Carlo Mattogno (Italy); and Ahmed Rami (Sweden). Of these activists, Bradley Smith, who served for many years as IHR's "Media Project Director," has attracted the most notoriety in the U.S., due to the series of "revisionist" advertisements which he has placed in college newspapers since 1991 for the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH).
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial.html
------------------
Hmmm - clearly all these guys are heavily involved in all this stuff.
It's there life? Sheesh.
And let's not forget Von Brunn....and his ties with these folks David Dees uses as his "sources"......
In the 1980s or early 1990s, von Brunn was employed by Noontide Press, a part of the Holocaust denying Institute of Historical Review, which was then run by Willis Carto, one of America’s most prominent anti-Semites.
[His] book is dedicated to prominent neo-Nazis and racists including Revilo Oliver and Wilmot Robertson.
Oh - the same Revilo Oliver and the same Willis Carto associated with the same source David Dees employs.
haha - Larry likes to insist people like Von Brunn are nothing like himself and the Truth Movement, Alex Jones etc......but he is: Vonn Brunn wrote
This is precisely the stratagem initiated by
the ILLUMINATI during the last half of 19th Century
America. Fat with profits harvested in the Civil War, JEWS
were like worms attacking a ripe cornfield. Their strategy, in
accordance with the PROTOCOLS was: 1) Convert the
American Republic into a DEMOCRACY; 2) Establish a
Rothschild central-bank; 3) Capture the mass-media; 4)
Enact a personal income tax; 5) Destroy White nationhood;
and 6) hitch America's incredible resources, strength and creative
energies to JEW aspirations, among which was the
destruction of Germany, avowed enemy of LIBERALISM/
MARXISM/JEWRY and Fatherland of the White Race.
0000000000000
HAha - that ticks almost all Larry's boxes. Only difference is Larry says "NWO" 'stead of "joooos".
And here's Von Brunn's views on the holocaust:
“HOLOCAUST” a HOAX.
The “HOLOCAUST” is defined as: The Extermination
of about 6-Million or more JEWS Resultant of NAZI Policy.
Since WWII, literally tons of evidence relating to the
“HOLOCAUST” has been studied by world-class scholars.
There is NO evidence supporting the “HOLOCAUST” as
defined:
THERE WAS NO POLICY TO MASS MURDER
JEWS. NO ORDER WAS GIVEN TO MASS MURDER
JEWS. THERE WAS NO BUDGET TO CARRY OUT
SUCH A POLICY. THERE WERE NO MEANS (GAS
CHAMBERS, etc.) TO CARRY OUT MASS MURDERS.
Revisionist Historians have concluded that a total of
about 300-thousand JEWS died of all causes during WWII.
See that? Even Von Brunn goes "as high" as 300,000.
David Dees has the number lower than Von Brunn.
But it's essentially the same number. From the same sources..........the same people Von Brunn once worked for....the same ones which Dees today goes to for justification of his holocaust denial.
I wonder if Larry met Von Brunn? They'd have a lot in common.....
Funny, I asked for a simple YES or NO, and not only does he give me the commentary I asked him NOT to give, he gives me commentary on top of more commentary on top of even more commentary.
TLNL, are you retarded? Seriously.
Can you answer my SIMPLE question?
Is 260,000 deaths a "massive slaughter"???
YES OR NO???
See, it's EASY, you say one or the other. You say YES if you agree that its a massive slaughter---and you say NO if you dont think it is.
Do you need flash cards?
YES or NO????
YES or NO???
HINT: Either say YES----or say NO when you reply.
"If it was only 300,000 killed, it wouldn't have been called a holocaust."
So, 300,000 is NOT a massive slaughter???? Wow, really?? "Holocaust" MEANS "massive slaughter" and you say 300,000 is NOT a holocaust. So, in essence, youre saying 300,000 is NOT a massive slaughter.
Youre REALLY saying 300,000 is NOT a massive slaughter?? REALLY???????
"Negationism means the denial of historical crimes against humanity. It is not a reinterpretation of known facts, but the denial of known facts."
Who cares if theyre KNOWN facts?? Are they PROVEN and VERIFIED facts?? Just asking.
Its a PROVEN fact that there were no plane parts in Shanksville and only small fires in WTC 7 and despite TLNL's claims that building 7 was leaning as it collapsed, the debris of WTC 7 was in its OWN FOOTPRINT after collapsing. These are all PROVEN facts--and yet TLNL dismisses them as some "theory"---yet when it comes to the holocaust numbers, all that suffices to him are "KNOWN" [accepted] facts---NOT PROVEN ones.
Good job TLNL. Yes, Larry is a sophist. It's like he is in debate club. Whatever side he is on, he will fight to the end to support it. That's a good attitude for debate club but not for 'real life'.
For those wondering about the Ernie kid TLNL mentioned, his website can be found here.
Yet again right woos left has been totally p*wned.
"Second Update: Larry wants to have his cake and eat it too. While he has made a couple posts sharing his general agreement with the 6 million number for the Holocaust, he continues to support Dees Illustrations' claim that 200-300,000 Jewish deaths would constitute a holocaust."
Complete and utter LIE. I said Im sticking with the number 6 million until there is evidence otherwise. So far, Dees has not proven it wasnt 6 million, and you two twits have not proved it WAS 6 million. Im agnostic about the number because I DONT KNOW the number.
In all your posts and all your long-windedness about this issue, you two have not PROVEN it was 6 million. That does NOT mean I dont believe it was 6 million, that just means you havent PROVEN it. So, your comment above is a complete fabrication. Just because I say things like "Is 260,000 deaths a "massive slaughter"???" doesnt mean I SUPPORT the number. Im only asking a question! Anyone who wasnt trying to spin and distort FACTS would know that----that would be everyone, except you two twits.
The ONLY way you can "appear" justified is through the spin and distortion of other peoples' words, and you fucking know it!
By the way, you two have STILL ignored my question: Is 260,000 a massive slaughter?
Asking that question does NOT mean thats how many I believe died!
Here's two examples why there is really no point in engaging with Larry over this (or anything else tbh)
1) ----
Larry: I said Im sticking with the number 6 million until there is evidence otherwise.
Just one sentence later, Larry says
Im agnostic about the number because I DONT KNOW the number.
Which is it Larry? Do you believe 6 million or do you not know the number?
--------
2) Larry demands evidence...says none was provided.....and Larry says he "doesn't know the number"......
But evidence, and links to much more was already presented. Larry replied:
LARRY: if you think I actually sat here and read your 50 posts, youre mistaken, I didnt read one word of any of them---not a word.
-------------
Larry uncritically links to, promotes, and defends David Dees.
Larry knows Dees uses Hal Turner and the crypto-fascist IHR as sources to affirm his holocaust denial - specifically claims that just 300,000 were killed in the holocaust. That "IT DID NOT HAPPEN".
Thus, Larry promotes holocaust denial.
Larry himself claims to be "agnostic" about the Holocaust - he "doesn't know the number".
Yet Larry refuses to examine any of the evidence for the approx 6m number. He won't read "a single word of it."
Larry says there's "no proof" - [he refuses to read a word about it]
Larry cowardly faces both ways: "I have said several times on my blog Im not a holocaust denier". Once, actually. But then he "doesn't know the number" .....and then he's even "agnostic"!
We don't need to care about Larry's refusal to accept the term "holocaust denier"......he's already proven he doesn't understand the term.
We're talking objective description here not Larry's personal idiosyncratic worldview.
Larry needn't even accept the term "holocaust denier". We already know that few outside of Stromfront would accept it.....and even they wouldn't accept it if they thought it expedient not to - in general public, for example. Larry's refusal to accept the term is as expected as it is irrelevant.
Further, Larry suggests his promotion of Dees needn't mean Larry supports Dees' views on the Holocaust: Dees' view on the Holocaust is but one facet of his views. However, it is a facet which reflects a coherent core of ideas running through the whole of Dees' work - a World (Jewish) Conspiracy. That's the framework within which Dees' Holocaust Denial occurs.....and it's what Dee's Holocaust Denial contributes to: an anti-semitic worldview, wherein jewish conspirators seek to dominate the world. The Protocols etc(check it out on Rense?) From such a perspective the Holocaust is a (jewish) fraud. Dees' Holocaust Denial therefore is a reflection and expression of his wider worldview, both TO WHICH DENIAL CONTRIBUTES AND FROM WHICH IT IS DERIVED.
Larry is obviously drawn to Dees' worldview - (Larry's idiosyncratic worldview is shared with Dees) even as he is obviously reluctant to unequivocally endorse Dees' Holocaust Denial.
But Larry is clearly susceptible to Dees' (and others') holocaust denial because he shares so much of the the wider worldview within which such holocaust denial forms a coherent and (seemingly) cogent strand - at least for Dees and others - such as Willis Carto, David Duke, Mike Rivero -- and Larry himself, of course.
One of my criticisms of 911 Troof has been its suceptibility to holocaust denial, along with its attendant nazism for exactly these reasons. This is an illustration of exactly that issue.
Here we have a Troofer, Larry, illustrating the point perfectly. Via Dees - the Troofers' artist of choice.....and seemingly, the artist of choice for holocaust denial and the far-right too.
The corrupting influence is obvious.
Larry is silent over Dees' use of Hal Turner....and IHR. Because Larry and Dees are fellow-travellers. Troofers both.
Dees' holocaust fantasies fit coherently into his wider worldview - one which Larry shares with Dees - and which Larry doubtless believes he is promoting at his website (by linking to Dees). This shared worldview makes Larry susceptible to holocaust denial, for the exact same reasons as it does Dees.
But Larry hesitates - in public, at least. He's equivocating - seemingly none-too-keen to follow Dees over into definite denial.
So Larry is exposed - claiming he "isn't a holocaust denier" - even as he admits "he doesn't know the number" - even as he claims he's "agnostic about the number".
he's all over the place.
"Fair enough Larry. I edited the second update (correction in bold)"
You do awful lot of correcting for someone interested in FACTS! How many corrections have you made now concerning my statements?
"Of course the murder of 260,000 people is a slaughter."
So, you ADMIT it's a SLAUGHTER---which is what the word "holocaust" means! LOL, goodness, you two are priceless!
Didnt read another word again TLNL! LOL
Well, it IS kind of suspicious that the state of Israel was created in 1948----not every long after the war.
ooop, meant to say "not very long after the war"
Excellent summation TLNL of what has been going on with this thread. And Larry has shown up once again to display he has no clue what the difference is between 6 million and 260,000. He's even now saying how suspicious it is that Israel was formed based on the Holocaust, as if maybe 260,000 is closer to the truth than 6 million. He is clearly all over the place. Perhaps that explains all my updating. One day he is saying he thinks it was 6 million, another 4 million, and then the next he is suggesting it is 260,000. Nonetheless, he is out of his head if he thinks there is any merit to Holocaust denial or "minimisation" as he puts it, as if there is an enigma to knowing a good approximation of the numbers. 15 million minus 6 million is 9 million. One third to 40% of all Jewish people were killed. That's some sick shite to suggest otherwise.
That Larry says he hasn't read one word TLNL has written is also further proof that he doesn't debate fairly. Both of us provided links by which Larry should have already been able to see with no reasonable doubt that approximately 6 million were killed.
If he is ignoring your posts, TLNL, perhaps if I ignore his, he will now go away. I have ideas for new blog entries. I feel Larry has become a distraction. My philosophy with trolls is that one must bash them down then get back on topic.
As for my use of updates and corrections, whatever. I'm not a linear thinker. I utilise a mosaic approach in trying to figure out social reality. No one is a computer, so mistakes are going to be made from time to time. I think it is to my credit that I am trying to be devil's adovcate with my blogging. If only Larry would make the same effort, perhaps I wouldn't now be putting his sorry arse on ignore.
"He's even now saying how suspicious it is that Israel was formed based on the Holocaust, as if maybe 260,000 is closer to the truth than 6 million."
Actually no, I am saying I have QUESTIONS. I forgot, you two just accept official stories with no question whatsoever. As for myself, I ask QUESTIONS.
Socrates, come to my blog under the Mark Potok story and read the thread and see TLNL contradict himself yet AGAIN on "privacy" issues. Its quite funny.
And by the way, there's a huge difference between 6 million and 260,000. 5,740,000 to be exact. But they are BOTH massive slaughters----you even ADMITTED 260,000 is a massive slaughter.
Its like saying Im a "multi-millionaire". Id be a multi- millionaire if I had 3 million dollars or 20 million. WAY different amounts, but doesnt change the title.
Get it now?
Larry: I ask QUESTIONS.
You want to try listening more, Larry.
"You want to try listening more, Larry."
Was that English? I have no clue what that even meant.
I love how you ignored my excellent "multi-millionaire" analogy. It cant be refuted, thats why.
You're too dim to see the weakness of analogy in general - and your own efforts are especially poor.
Would it not still be TRUE that if I had 20 million or 3 million dollars, I would STILL be a multi-millionaire? Does it change the title?
Answer that.
260,000 out of 15 million is 1.7%
6 million out of 15 million is 40%
Are you really this stupid?
Part of the weirdness about Holocaust denial is the urge to deny millions of peoples' murder.
Sometimes there's a real eagerness to it...that's obviously ugly. Othertimes, there's a nonchalance, that treats the number as if it were just a statistic - as if it were a date for some king or queen's reign. It's a shrug of the soldiers.....
And then we have Larry....who is turning all sorts of rhetorical stunts.....seemingly trying to defend David Dees' claims of 300,000....and certainly refusing to accept the implications of 6m for Dees' claims. (Even though we already know Dees' claims are sourced to Hal Turner and IHR)
What'll it be next? A defence that Hal Turner and the IHR are as reliable sources as academic historians.....? (Because as academics they're all involved in some world (jewish) conspiracy....of course....)
That's how conspiracism works as anti-science, and anti-intellectualism. Everything "official" (which doesn't fit one's view) can be dismissed as "corrupted evidence" by dint of it being "official" and "establishment"...whatever. But anything that's "official" and can be twisted to support the conspiracist view has a special status - EVEN THE GOVERNMENT ADMITS IT! The "official line" is then Holy Writ - it MUST be TRUE. They said it!
Take Himmler at Posen....his speech doesn't mean anything? "We will exerminate the jews, everyone knows it....that's our program."
But they must never speak of it.
See how that is treated compared to the various Nazi denials.....the lack of a documented and communicated plan for "The Final Solution", for example. There's no directive signed by Hitler instituting The Final Solution....! IT couldn't have happened!
Larry's asking for "proof" is akin to asking for proof NASA employs 120,000 people, say.
Link to Wiki - not good enough.
Link to NASA - not good enough.
Link to Congressional library info: not good enough
etc
NO PROOF!
Paystubs for everyone? Addresses? Names? How to get them and how to verify they're real though? Go to their homes, one by one?
Now try it for 60 times the number of people -- all dead -- and mostly incinerated into ash, quicklimed into decomposition, or just abandoned in forests in the East....how on earth are you going to do that on a website?
Really it's about one's attitude to "history".....about records...about academia's intellectual honesty...its ability and preparedness to self-correct...
Conspiracists break all faith with such a system.....they're then free to cherry pick only the things they like, rather than operate as the rest of us do : forced to accept even the things we don't like - because of FACTS.
Conspiracism just says "they're not 'facts'" and is free to proceed based upon whatever 'facts' it chooses.
This is what Orwell was on about in the essay I am trying to find. He was worried what it would mean when people couldn't even agree on the most basic of facts. That was what Winston was doing in 1984....changing facts....so that eventually no-one knew what the facts were, and they could become whatever one needed them to be. Obviously that's really deeply corrosive to Western culture....an overturning of the enlightenment, really.
I'll find Orwell's essay :D
There cant be a denial of something unless the thing being denied is VERIFIED to be true. You two have even ADMITTED that every death cant be verified:
TLNL: Well, no - it isn't possible to get a list of every jew in Europe, for example. And it isn't possible to draw a list of definite fate of every single person involved.
ME: ARE all the names of the 6 million verified?
TLNL: I'm pretty certain they are not.
So, in your ADMITTANCE that the 6 million cannot be verified.....you are DENYING murders! And TLNL has said that even denying ONE murder is holocaust denial. If you cant verify them ALL, then you are DENYING murders, even if its one, two or five people.
So, in your admittance that you cannot verify them all, you are basically saying you are HOLOCAUST DENIERS---right?
Yes or No
Im using YOUR WORDS. Im not twisting ANYTHING.
TLNL has said: [and what is simply AMAZING about the following two paragraphs is that they were said IN THIS ORDER in the SAME post by TLNL]
"Contesting the numbers to any great extent is obviously holocaust denial.....whether someone asserts no-one was murdered or whether they assert one person was murdered, both are holocaust denial. The denial of even a single murder is denial.
Of course, it is impossible to be absolutely certain of the number because of the obvious problems in tracing millions of individuals and their fate."
You said that "the denial of even a single murder is denial"----THEN in the second paragraph you said:
"..it is impossible to be absolutely certain of the number"
If its IMPOSSIBLE to be absolutely CERTAIN of the number, that means the following things:
1. The number you have is NOT correct
2. Since it's NOT correct, that means you are DENYING deaths.
3. Since you DENYING deaths, then, according to YOUR WORDS---NOT MINE, you are a HOLOCAUST DENIER.
Once again, I destroy you two turds with your OWN WORDS.
God, this is fun!
Once again, I destroy you two turds with your OWN WORDS.
yes larry. well done.
one can only marvel at your genius:
L: If its IMPOSSIBLE to be absolutely CERTAIN of the number, that means the following things:
1. The number you have is NOT correct
2. Since it's NOT correct, that means you are DENYING deaths.
3. Since you DENYING deaths, then, according to YOUR WORDS---NOT MINE, you are a HOLOCAUST DENIER.
You've proven something everyone takes for granted already. Your mistake is to holler "holocaust denial" at errors of margin and inexactitude.....whilst remaining silent over obvious falsification.
That there is a degree of inexactitude over numbers killed in the holocaust is not at dispute. There is no controversy that exact numbers will never be known for the deaths of the whole of WW2....
ALL measurements have a degree of error - strictly speaking ALL measurements should be declared with their error of margin else they might be quite misleading.
What error margins are in Dees' and Hal Turner's claim that 300,000 were murdered in the Holocaust?
1000%?
What are the error margins (and variance) of the consensus around 6.1 million?
And what are these estimates based upon?
David Dees posts a link to a single source - Hal Turner - referencing a single (apparently obviously hokey) document - which states just 300,000 people were murdered in the Holocaust.
And that compares to the basis of the settled opinion of academic world history?!!!!!!
You can only argue your position honestly if you are ignorant Larry.
More likely is you hold the same attitude to "history" - particularly of the holocaust - as you do towards "science" in the global warming/climate change debate.....or how you view journalism and academia in light of your belief that 911 was "an inside job".
You don't trust them and you simply don't believe them - at all - about anything. (Unless they say something which reinforces your view, of course)
I think it all illustrates how susceptible conspiracism is to holocaust denial, and to anti-semitism (obviously through the holocaust denial but also through the idea of a world conspiracy. Inevitably any ideas of a world conspiracy are going to metastasize into anti-semitism somewhere along the line - it's always going to be a tendency.)
The obvious thing to do in this case is to to try find one's own estimate for the number murdered, if any were.
What one can't do is say that this hasn't already been done many times over, meticulously, and with access to original documents far beyond what the internet can ever provide.
What you seem to miss, Larry, is the process itself is important.....
A link to forged documents at Hal Turner's website hardly suffices.
To even imagine it could - as Dees must have done - reveals an extreme sort of intellectual poverty. This is what stands against the supposed corruption of academia? How can anyone imagine it comes close?
So, Larry - dare to "think for yourself"? Build your own estimate? See how it compares to what Dees said, and see how you then feel about his "history"?
See how it compares to "the official line".....of which there are actually many currents, unnoticed by your binary mind.
And let's see HOW you go about it? What's your method? What issues with the accuracy do you identify? What are your error margins? What are your numbers?
You can be as questioning as you like. But it's plain silliness to believe that "the holocaust hasn't been investigated".....and if you are going to reject the whole consensus of academic history, then you should at least have some good grounds for doing so. Hint: not Hal Turner.
What do you offer against the dusty old tomes of the great libraries?
"Your mistake is to holler "holocaust denial" at errors of margin and inexactitude"
Ohhhh NOOO, no you dont. It was YOUR words----YOU that said:
"Contesting the numbers to any great extent is obviously holocaust denial.....whether someone asserts no-one was murdered or whether they assert one person was murdered, both are holocaust denial. The denial of even a single murder is denial."
"Of course, it is impossible to be absolutely certain of the number because of the obvious problems in tracing millions of individuals and their fate."
"..it is impossible to be absolutely certain of the number"
REGARDLESS of what the reason is that ANY number of deaths may not be recognized---whether its denial of the deaths or inaccurate or imcomplete records of the EXACT number------YOUR WORDS still must apply, that "The denial of even a single murder is denial"
YOU SAID YOURSELF that denial of even ONE MURDER is holocaust denial-----that should include "NOT BEING absolutely certain of the number".
I'll give you an example since you need it spelled out for you.
Lets say the EXACT CORRECT number of holocaust deaths is 5,900,775. But according to the records that are available, we can only VERIFY 5,900,760 deaths. Thats 15 deaths unaccounted for.
In essence, you are saying that because we would ONLY KNOW OF the latter number---5,900,760----but really 15 more people died, that youre DENYING 15 deaths-----which makes YOU a HOLOCAUST DENIER, because YOU said-----YOU said, YOU said.......NOT me---but YOU said:
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
Youre flip-flopping BIG TIME. NOW, since I have pointed out your contradictory remarks, you're trying to say that only people like Dees are holocaust deniers because they deny a large number of deaths, but YOU SAID earlier [and Ive re-posted it MANY times]:
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
If the denial of even a SINGLE death is holocaust denial, then YOU are Socrates are holocaust deniers TOO-----not by MY definition---by YOURS. Im using YOUR WORDS bub.
Now, since I cornered your ass with your OWN WORDS, now youre going back to saying that holocaust deniers are ONLY those who deny MANY deaths---but let me remind you of your OWN contradictory words, you big FRAUD:
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
"The denial of even a single murder is denial"
YOUR WORDS pal, you cant run from them!
Im not saying Dees is right. On the other hand, I dont see you debunking him either. I just see ad hominem attacks.
Yea, I am a waste of your time, but I have an audience of millions on the internet who follow and understand what I research. Unlike a sad follower of satan such as yourself. Go play with your other butt pirate there, you make a great pair of monkeys. I noticed you did not debate the facts that the red cross made their announcement after volumes of studies about the holocaust, instead you say that I am not worth your time. Once day you will take the time to study the event, until then you just jack yourself off in the corner to a mirror. haha.
David Dees: obvious you find it impossible to weed through the evidence
HAHAHAHAHA
You say that after you cite Hal Turner and the IHR!! HAHA
Hey - let's go ask Willis Carto's opinion to finally settle the matter?
Doubtless you and he get along fine, eh, Mr Dees?
David Dees: I will go with the eyewitnesses who were allowed into the camps, the international red cross, they put the figures at 270,000, and records show only 40 per cent of the prisoners were jewish, do the math little babies.
HAHA - that's the sum of it? That's it?
Gee - what an exhaustive look at the issue!
You expose yourself as ignorant even as you press your point.
The IRC delegates were expressly forbidden from visiting the Auschwitz Krema, where the gas chambers and creamation facilities were. They were taken only to those parts of the huge complex which housed prisoners who
were not to be exterminated. Some Allied POWs were held in Auschwitz, in reasonable conditions, but they knew about the gassings and mentioned them to the IRC delegate. For more information, read "The Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross ICRC) on its Activities during the Second World War" (Geneva, 1948)
----------
The Red Cross was absolutely specific about the Jews' fate. It made reference to the Nazi attempt to annihilate them, observing that under Nazi rule Jews had been transformed into 'outcasts condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and _systematic extermination_.'<49>
...Most important, the ICRC specifically delineated how systematic annihilation was carried out: 'They were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to _deathcamps_ without anyone being allowed to intervene in those matters.'<50>
These were not the ICRC's only references to death camps or systematic annihilation." (Lipstadt, 114-115)
And anyone trying to say the ICRC had accurate records of the entirety of the holocaust victims is talking through their behind.
How and why would the ICRC know the exact numbers - whilst the holocaust was occuring!? Were they riding along with the Einsatzgruppen? Sure.....
Still, let's have some more opinion from HAl Turner, Willis Carto, and David Duke.....? Eh Mr Dees?
That document cited - at Hal Turner's has been explained by the ICRC. It doesn't say what you think it does.
A letter from the Bad Arolsen International Tracing Service regarding only registered deaths at Nazi concentration camps. This and similar correspondence is frequently misrepresented as the absolute death toll of the Holocaust by deniers.
The January 19, 1955 edition of Die Tat did indeed give a 300,000 figure, but this was only in reference to "Germans and German Jews" and not nationals of other countries.[44] In a 1979 response to this pamphlet, the ICRC said that they have "never tried to compile statistics on the victims of the war",[45] nor "certified the accuracy of the statistics produced by a third party",[45] and state that the authors of such material have "falsified" both claims that the document originates from the ICRC and refers exclusively to Jews.[45]
As well as in personal correspondence, the ICRC has also addressed this misrepresentation by several other means. In 1975, the ICRC wrote to the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London regarding Harwood's citations, stating:
The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind.[46]
—Françoise Perret , Comité International de la Croix-Rouge, to Jacob Gerwitz, August 22, 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial#International_Committee_of_the_Red_Cross
It's only wiki?
Here's the original letters, and their translations:
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/2472
Such is the weak gruel of holocaust denial.
oh - and note how Dees usually likes to portray zionism/Israel as "nazi-like"?
and yet here he is claiming the Nazis weren't so bad......
Apparently the Israelis are supposed to be carrying out "nazi-like" atrocities ...... yet Dees denies the Nazi atrocities.
the bizarro world of the anti-semitic nazi apologist?
Does Mr Dees appreciate his many fans over at Stormfront too?
Any ideas why Stromfronters like your "work", Mr Dees? For the aesthetic value?
Extract from a report by Karl Jaeger, Commander of Einsatzkommando 3, on the extermination of Lithuanian Jews:
Commander of the Security Police and the SD
Einsatzkommando 3
Kovno, December 1, 1941
Reich Secret Document
Final Summary of Executions carried out in the operating area of EK [Einsatzkommando] 3 up to December 1, 1941
... I can confirm today that Einsatzkommando 3 has achieved the goal of solving the Jewish problem in Lithuania. There are no more Jews in Lithuania, apart from working Jews and their families.
These number:
in Shavli, about 4,500
in Kovno, about 15,000
in Vilna, about 15,000
I wanted to eliminate the working Jews and their families as well, but the Civil Administration ( Reichskommissar ) and the Wehrmacht attacked me most sharply and issued a prohibition against having these Jews and their families shot.
The goal of clearing Lithuania of Jews could only be achieved through the establishment of a specially selected Mobile Commando under the command of SS Obersturmfuehrer Hamann, who adopted my aims fully and who was able to ensure the cooperation of the Lithuanian Partisans and the Civil Authorities concerned.
The carrying out of such Aktionen is first of all an organizational problem. The decision to clear each sub-district systematically of Jews called for a thorough preparation for each Aktion and the study of local conditions. The Jews had to be concentrated in one or more localities and, in accordance with their numbers, a site had to be selected and pits dug. The marching distance from the concentration points to the pits averaged 4 to 5 kms. The Jews were brought to the place of execution in groups of 500, with at least 2 kms. distance between groups... All the officers and men of my command in Kovno took an active part in the Grossaktionen in Kovno. Only one official of the intelligence corps was released from participation on account of illness.
I consider the Aktionen against the Jews of EK 3 to be virtually completed. The remaining working Jews and Jewesses are urgently needed, and I can imagine that this manpower will continue to be needed urgently after the winter has ended. I am of the opinion that the male working Jews should be sterilized immediately to prevent reproduction. Should any Jewess nevertheless become pregnant, she is to be liquidated....
Jaeger
SS Standartenfuehrer
Source: Yad Vashem Archives, O-18/245.
35,000 in Lithuania alone. With some more to come, obviously.
You think there aren't tons of documents like these?
Instead we're to believe Hal Turner's claims about a reproduction of a single document - claims long-ago rebutted by the ICRC.....
Consider the records for train deportations of jews to Auschwitz.
One can trace some deportations with surprising precision. And they end up at Auschwitz.
Well, where did they go subsequently - if they weren't murdered?
What happened to them?
The Germans only pretended to move them to Auschwitz?
Still - where did they go? They just walked right out of Auschwitz and disappeared?
Take the Warsaw Ghetto too - it was "evacuated" and the population transported to Auschwitz. WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?
WHERE DID THEY GO?
And the evidence isn't just from Warsaw.....it stretches across europe. There were domestic records for "transports to the east" ....there's the railway bureaucracy and its records...across various different countries of occupied europe.
If they were genuinely "resettled in the east" then where are they?
No - let's just take one misrepresented document from Hal Turner and consider the matter closed. Sheesh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_train
Thanks TLNL.
The Chief of the Security Police
Berlin: September 21, 1939
SECRET
To: Chiefs of all Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police
Subject: Jewish question in the occupied territory
I refer to the conference held in Berlin today and once more point out that the planned overall measures (i.e., the final aim) are to be kept strictly secret.
The planned measures demand the most thorough preparation in their technical as well as economic aspects.
It is obvious that the tasks that lie ahead cannot be laid down in full detail from here. The instructions and guidelines below will at the same time serve the purpose of urging the chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen to give the matter their practical thought.
.....
For the time being, the first prerequisite for the final aim is the concentration of the Jews from the countryside into the larger cities. This is to be carried out with all speed.
For the attainment of the goals set, I expect total deployment of all forces of the Security Police and the Security Service.
The chiefs of neighboring Einsatzgruppen are to establish contact with each other immediately so that the territories concerned will be covered completely.
//Signed// Heydrich
---------------------------
That is what you vicious loons would normally call "a smoking gun".
But as it's the Nazi, Heydrich, somehow you aim to excuse him......
I can't imagine why. What would your motivation be?
Heydrich is speaking to the heads of the Einsatzgruppen - one of whom would write:
It was to be expected from the beginning that the Jewish problem in the Ostland could not be solved by pogroms alone. At the same time the Security Police had basic, general orders for cleansing operations aimed at a maximum elimination of the Jews. Large-scale executions were therefore carried out in the cities and the countryside by Sonderkommandos (Special Units), which were assisted by selected units – partisan groups in Lithuania, and parties of the Latvian Auxiliary Police in Latvia. The work of the execution units was carried out smoothly. Where Lithuanian and Latvian forces were attached to the execution units, the first to be chosen were those who had had members of their families and relatives killed or deported by the Russians.
Particularly severe and extensive measures became necessary in Lithuania . In some places – especially in Kovno – the Jews had armed themselves and took an active part in sniping and arson. In addition, the Jews of Lithuania cooperated most closely with the Soviets.
The total number of Jews liquidated in Lithuania is 71,105.
Up to now 30,000 Jews have been executed in Latvia. The pogrom in Riga eliminated 500.
Most of the 4,500 Jews living in Estonia at the start of the Eastern campaign fled with the retreating Red Army. About 2,000 stayed behind. In Reval alone there were about 1,000 Jews.
The arrest of all male Jews over the age of sixteen is almost completed. With the exception of the doctors and the Jewish Elders appointed by the Sonderkommando they [the remaining Jews] are being executed by the Estonian Self-defense under the supervision of Sonderkommando 1a. Jewesses between the ages of 16 through 60 in Reval and Pernau, who are fit for work, were arrested and used to cut peat and for other work.
At present a camp is being built at Harku, to which all the Jews in Estonia will be sent, so that in a short time Estonia will be cleared of Jews.
After the carrying out of the first large-scale executions in Lithuania and Latvia it already proved that the total elimination of the Jews is not possible there, at least not at the present time. As a large part of the skilled trades is in Jewish hands in Lithuania and Latvia, and some (glaziers, plumbers, stove-builders, shoemakers) are almost entirely Jewish, a large proportion of Jewish craftsmen are indispensable at present for the repair of essential installations, for the reconstruction of destroyed cities, and for work of military importance. Although the employers aim at replacing Jewish labor with Lithuanian or Latvian workers, it is not yet possible to replace all the Jews presently employed, particularly in the larger cities. In cooperation with the labor exchange offices, however, Jews who are no longer fit for work are picked up and will be executed shortly in small Aktionen.
It must also be noted in this connection that in some places there has been considerable resistance by offices of the Civil Administration against large-scale executions. This [resistance] was confronted in every case by pointing out that it was a matter of carrying out orders [involving] a basic principle.
Apart from organizing and carrying out the executions, preparations were begun from the first days of the operation for the establishment of ghettos in the larger cities. This was particularly urgent in Kovno, where there were 30,000 Jews in a total population of 152,400. At the end of the early pogroms, therefore, a Jewish Committee was summoned and informed that the German authorities had so far seen no reason to interfere in the conflicts between the Lithuanians and the Jews. A condition for the creation of a normal situation would be, first of all, the creation of a Jewish ghetto. When the Jewish Committee remonstrated, it was explained that there was no other possibility of preventing further pogroms. At this the Jews at once declared that they were ready to do everything to transfer their co-racials as quickly as possible to the Viliampole Quarter, where it was planned to establish the Jewish ghetto. This area is situated in the triangle between the River Memel and a branch of the river, and is linked with Kovno by only one bridge, atheasily sealed off.
Source: Nuremberg Documents, L-180.
Shame on you not to recognise this stuff.
I reposted this to sort the formatting. That's what the earlier deletion is.
---------------
Larry will read none of this - again.
And then say "There's no proof!" - again.
Hal Turner's claims about the ICRC are thoroughly debunked.
On the other hand there are mountains of evidence.
Like shoes.....hairbrushes...spectacles. Documents. a distinct lack of living people.
And Dees has the gall to write that Hitler was framed!
WTF?
Thereafter Rosenberg issued instructions that Jewish forced labor should be utilized for every manual labor task:
"The standing rule for the Jewish labor employment is the complete and unyielding use of Jewish manpower regardless of age in the reconstruction of the occupied eastern territories."
"Violations against German measures, especially against the forced labor regulations, are to be punished by death to the Jews." (212-PS)
From the ghettos Jewish labor was selected and sent to a concentration area. Here the usable Jews were screened from those considered worthless. For example, a contingent of
45,000 Jews could be expected to yield 10,000 to 15,000 usable laborers. This estimate is based on an RSHA telegram to Himmler, marked "Urgent" and "Secret", and dated 16 February 1942:
"In the total of 45,000 are included physically handicapped and others (old Jews and children). In making a distribution for this purpose, at least 10,000 to 15,000 laborers will be available when the Jews arriving at Auschwitz are assigned." (1472-PS
AND THE REST????????
WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE ON ARRIVAL AT AUSCHWITZ WHOM DO NOT GET "ASSIGNED" FOR SLAVE LABOUR?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MAJORITY - THOSE CONSIDERED TO BE "WORTHLESS" ????
WHERE DID THEY GO?
The selected ones went onto Auschwitz lists.....
What about the rest?
David Dees: I noticed you did not debate the facts that the red cross made their announcement after volumes of studies about the holocaust...
There is NO debate.
The ICRC have never said what you claim they have, and they have long ago and repeatedly completely rejected and rebutted any such claims. The ICRC says itself that it would be in no position to make such claims about the holocaust - it never would make them, and never has.
All such claims about ICRC reports supposedly refuting the holocaust can safely be dismissed out of hand - the ICRC has never made any such claims and categorically says so.
So there is no debate.
Wow, Socrates deleted a post from TLNL!!! He either used A LOT of profanity or made one of numerous contradictory statements that even Socrates recognized.
By the way David, I annihilate both of these dweebs on the 9-11 issue so bad, TLNL has even enabled comment moderation on his own site and has deleted my posts claiming "I use profanity and vitriol" while at the same time uses profanity himself.
This guy does ZERO research on ANYTHING he talks about. 95% of his posts are copy and paste segments from other sites. He does ZERO investigation. I even refute his own arguments with his OWN words.
He also COMPLETELY IGNORES anything he cant even BEGIN to refute, thats why if you post comments and any segments are ignored [which he ignores MOST of my post segments] that means he cannot debunk it. And when you re-type the question over and over until he answers it, he will make up out of the blue that he's not answering your question because you "havent answered his questions" even when he doesnt ask a question or when you HAVE answered something he does ask.
These are two of the biggest FRAUDS on the planet. Why do you think he's too PUSSY to give his REAL name? He knows MY name and he knows YOURS. Funny how only the "kooks" are the ones that have no fear of their REAL names being known to the public and not afraid of public scorn.
One of the top 5 top signs of a TRUE FRAUD is the lack of disclosure of one's real name. It protects them from posting fraudulent material, and above all, its the act of a COWARD.
Larry, please don't post outright lies. I'm sure it was a mistake, but I didn't delete TLNL's post. If you look, it says removed by author. TLNL even explained that he deleted it in order to reformat it or something.
You're also grossly mistaken about the law concerning anonymity on the internet. If anything, you are more protected by supplying your name.
Nonetheless, legal proceedings could be taken against anyone, and even anonymous posters' true identities could be figured out. Problem with that, however, is that there's no libel, if what is written is the truth. In addition, it is very difficult to prove both malicious intent and damages. There is also the distinct possiblity that counter-claims could be made.
Larry, I'm through with you. If you think David Dees looks good after this long thread, you are even more stupid than I ever thought.
Hopefully, you now have gotten off your chest what you wanted to and will go away.
hehe - Larry refuses to read a single word then jumps around touting his victory....
lol - what a victory?
Socrates, I think you should add Dees' picture where he has Hitler and above it is written "FRAMED".
I don't think anything else better illuminates the landscape of Dees' thought.
I've saved copies of this thread.....as I'm amazed Dees was so....errr....."forthright". Hal Turner? IHR? Crikey. What an opening gambit. lol
I wonder if Larry will get around to asking Dees where the "missing" passengers to Auschwitz went?
August 1940
the first transport of 1,666 Poles leaves Warsaw for Auschwitz.
November 1940
the ghetto in Warsaw was sealed off. 138,000 Jews and 113,000 Poles had to change their place of residence. The area of the ghetto covers 307 ha of built-up land, and in 1,483 houses there are almost 400,000 Jewish residents.
March 1941
... the number of inhabitants of the ghetto in Warsaw reaches a height - within the walls there are c. 460,000 Jews.
August 1941
In August the death rate in the ghetto in Warsaw reaches a height - 5,560 people die.
November 1941
construction begun of the extermination centre at Bełżec.
March 1942
building begun of the extermination centre at Sobibór.
the extermination centre at Bełżec begins to operate.
the deportation begins of 30,000 Jews from Lublin to Bełżec (it ended on 20 April).
May 1942
the first deportation action begins in the Kraków ghetto, and lasts to 8 June (c. 5,000 Jews are deported to Bełżec)
July 1942
from the ghetto in Lwów 7,000 Jews are deported and exterminated in the Janów camp.
the extermination centre at Treblinka begins to function (up to August 1943, 870,000 Jews were killed there).
September 1942
the last transport departs from the Umschlagplatz[Warsaw Ghetto]; end of the great deportation action in the Warsaw ghetto (the losses: according to the November report of the Jewish underground organisations, c. 275,000 victims, according to the report of Stroop c. 310,000 victims).
http://warszawa.getto.pl/index.php?show=kalendarium&lang=en
Hi TLNL, thanks for doing the dirty work on this thread.
Oh great Lord of Last Names, I have bequeathed your request and added the Dees Illustration of "Hitler Framed" to a third update. I dost hopeth you are as pleased as medieval punch.
Do you know if there's a way to lock these threads? I'm not trying to censor but am worried if it goes on too long, the software's gonna start to get garbled. If it can be locked, then I could put in a last_post_left redirecting folks to a new thread, if they had something more to say. Of course, right now you are the only one making any sense.
And all this talk of Lords, that reminds me, one of us should figure out this Lord Monckton. I find it kind of funny how these titled right woos left knuckleheads are showing up on the Tinfoil Radio Neywork. I guess that's all I've got. Thanks again.
p.s. I get all comments sent to my email then transfer them to a folder. So if anything gets deleted, I have copies also. I would just need to become aware that someone has taken out the scrub brush. I got burned on this forum in its early days. Someone named Susan Something deleted a ton of her posts, and I had no copies to back them up. They were concerning the guy I dedicated this forum to, so it hurt double. You would have liked that guy. He used to go toe to toe with Sean Hannity and the right wing noise machine. Sean was fairly close to Hal Turner, kind of built him up from a no-name caller to his show enabling him to become Mr. Neonazi Agent Provocateur. DFQ wasn't as lefty as we are, but he would've shown us respect and not censored us. I was just starting to explain my story to him, when he tragically died of a heart attack. RIP David Weintraub.
" I didn't delete TLNL's post. If you look, it says removed by author."
And just how do you delete your own comment? I dont see ANYWHERE on here that allows that.
"Do you know if there's a way to lock these threads? I'm not trying to censor but am worried if it goes on too long, the software's gonna start to get garbled."
LOL, looks like the Gestapo is gearing up to END the thread out of fear too much truth will be posted here.
"You're also grossly mistaken about the law concerning anonymity on the internet. If anything, you are more protected by supplying your name."
PLEASE be my guest in explaining just HOW someone who put their name out there has MORE protection! I CANNOT wait to hear this!
Yeah, I can see my new headline on a new story I write on my blog.....
"Anonymous guy calls 9-11 truthers 'kooks'"
The REAL identity is PROTECTED by anonymous posters. How can you even deny that??? I CANT WAIT to hear how your real name protects you MORE.
Tell me something "SOCRATES" ---how am I protected MORE by you doing an ad hominem attack story about me using my REAL name and using pictures of ME?
This just proves you two live in some Earthly alternate reality!
When will you two stop ad hominem attacking Dees and get to REAL evidence???
I have to admit, I dont understand the "FRAMED" photo myself. I can understand McVeigh and Bin Laden being patsies [McVeigh could have been a CIA Manchurian Candidate 'bomber'] and of course Bin Laden is definately framed. His CIA name was Tim Osman---once our ally, and who can forget the Bin Laden family being business partners with the Bush family? Definately framed.
I'm lost on the Hitler one. Even if Dees claims 108,000 or 260,000 were killed, that's STILL a hell of a lot of people. I also know Hitler was heavily supported by America [through IBM and General Motors, just to name a few] and by England's banks and among other countries, but how does that constitute being framed? Im lost on that one.
Larry, I don't want to sound like a smarty pants, but you come across as one of the most slow-witted individuals I've ever encountered on the net. You're somewhat personable, every once in a while I can stomach your posts, but in general, you're like talking with a child.
You have had your own blogspot for a while. Thus, it makes no sense to me how you can't understand the basics of blogger software. If you post anonymously, as in you don't sign in with your blogger account, of course you can't delete your posts. TLNL signs up with his account. By doing so he has access to the garbage can icon blogger provides. If you had even looked closely at the deleted post, you'd have seen how it says removed by author. Will you ever say ok, I see what you mean, or are you playing as a troll to get kicks out of wasting other people's time?
I explained exactly why I'd be into locking this thread and continuing it elsewhere. I don't think that can be done. When the entries go on for too long, the data starts to get corrupted. Wtf is your problem that you can't comprehend things like this? That's not censoring any great truths. If it were possible to do that, I said I'd leave a link to a new thread. Dude, you're that person on Wheel of Fortune who buys vowels even when the answer is obvious. You seem to have the mental abilities of a fifth grader. Nothing personal either.
I'm also not going to do your homework on the law the Bush Administration passed outlawing annoying posts made by anonymous posters. That's all I meant by saying you have more rights than me and TLNL in a way. Of course by putting your real name out there, you present yourself to more dangers. Hence, many of us do stay anonymous, because we don't want to be stalked in real life. I'm not saying I believe anyone will do that to you. But I do believe it is a risk one takes when they post in the open. I do respect that you use your real name. I never said otherwise.
No one is throwing out ad hominems. Dees admits he believes only 108,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis. That makes him a Holocaust denier.
As for posting a few of your photos, you're the one who posted them on your website. I didn't think it was a big deal then to post them here. I selected them, because they illustrated your posing with Ron Paul and Alex Jones. But if you want me to, I will take them off of this page.
I don't think you're an evil person or paid to post. I just think you drink too much coffee and get snookered by too many dubious sources.
"You seem to have the mental abilities of a fifth grader. Nothing personal either."
Oh, is that why you refused to answer my list of questions I asked repeatedly a week or two ago [most of which would have been short 'yes' or 'no' answers]?
You also completely ignored the hypocrisy you possess by admitting you read The Progressive, whose 2 big contributors, Zinn and Chomsky have denied that the JFK assassination was aconspiracy---something YOU have admitted you ACCEPT as a conspiracy.
Normally, I dont play the guilt-by-association game, but it seems to be a favorite of you and TLNL. My god, you even call me a holocaust denier just for posting NON-HOLOCAUST related pics made by David Dees on my site!
I love Elton John's music as well. Does that mean I believe Jesus was gay [something he said a few days ago]? You think just because I link to Dees' store and use his pictures, that I agree with EVERYTHING he says. I like Bill Maher too, but I dont agree with everything he says.
Are you suggesting that if Dees has his view on the holocaust wrong, then his views about everything else is wrong too? If your answer to that is NO, then I want you to tell me why its so bad that I link to his store or post his pics?
"Dude, you're that person on Wheel of Fortune who buys vowels even when the answer is obvious. You seem to have the mental abilities of a fifth grader. Nothing personal either."
And youre that person who WATCHES Wheel of Fortune.
'nuff said
"I'm also not going to do your homework on the law the Bush Administration passed outlawing annoying posts made by anonymous posters."
Not aware of that. Whats that got to do with blogger.com's posting policy that "annoying posts" are not a violation of their policy? Ive had this debate with Andy Ostroy already. He was claiming I was violating blogger.com's policy by leaving nasty, foul-mouthed posts which could get my site removed. Yet, he DELETED my posts and posted messages to his other readers my comments were "nasty" but yet removed the "evidence" that I was "nasty", thus protecting me any so-called 'punishment' i would face if I was guilty.
If I was violating policies, Ostroy would have let my posts remain so he'd have the evidence to show blogger.com. He deleted my posts because they were too fact based and he didnt want his readers to see the FACTS I posted because in doing so, that meant HE would have had to address them.
Besides, the term "annoying" is relative. What could be a great comment to me could be an "annoying" one to you. So far, the only comments you two call "annoying" are ones you cant debunk, which are most of mine.
Ah - now Dees is off shifting ground again, and again moves to new ground to assert definite holocaust denial.
You haven't yet dealt with the straightforward question I put to you, Mr Dees: what happened to the 450,000 jews transported out of the Warsaw Ghetto?
You earlier had claimed 300,000 people died in the holocaust....and less then half were jews.
And yet we know the survivors of the 450,000 in the Ghetto were transported elsewhere. We also have the accounts (in captured Nazi documents) of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen.....mobile killing units....which cleared the East of jews and other undesirables, and collected them into ghettos, following the advance of the German front in Operation Barbarossa.
What happened to these people?
Specifically - what happened to those whom arrived at Auschwitz, for example, but whom were deemed "worthless" and were therefore never assigned, and therefore never entered in to the Auschwitz camp records?
You have completely failed to address this. Why? Because you have no answer.
I have not asserted that these people must have necessarily been killed by gassingm with ZyklonB, in gas chambers at auschwitz, although I do firmly believe that to be the case.
But what do YOU think happened to the people transported to the extermination camps after they were deemed "worthless"?
This alone, and the facts of the Einsatzgruppen refutes your claim that c. 150,000 jews were killed in the holocaust. We can easily exceed your number simply from the Einsatzgruppen reports.....official nazi communiques etc. We don't have to go near arguments about gassings yet......we have already refuted your lie that only 150,000 jews were killed in the holocaust from the records of the Einsatzgruppen alone.
Then we have the transports from Warsaw, and right across the occupied territories - in the east, in france, belgium, netherlands, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc.
What happened to all those deemed WORTHLESS upon arrival at their destination camps?
We know they left their place of departure.....and we know from train records amongst other things where they were going.
So what happened to all those people, Mr Dees?
Whether those people were murdered in gas chambers and their bodies subsequently cremated in the Krema, or not, is an entirely separate issue, for the moment.
You want to avoid accepting that you are plain and simply wrong about your claims that c.150,000 were killed in the holocaust. So you wish to shift ground.
Not so fast - we can get to that once you have accepted there is an issue over the "missing" people from the transports ie those deemed worthless and UNASSIGNED at the extermination/work camps.
How do YOU account for all those people Mr Dees? Did they just walk out of their detention camps and disappear into the Polish countryside?
-----
As for Leuchter - let's just expose some of your distortions and outright lies you make:
1) Leuchter is NOT a scientist - you claim he is. Leuchter has a single degree, gained in 1964, and it is a BA - a bachelor of Arts, not a BSc - a bachelor of Science. Leuchter has no scientific OR engineering qualifications. HE IS NOT A SCIENTIST.
2) You said: "Is there any Zyklon B gas residue in the gas chamber, knowing that cyanide gas would, in fact, leave a residue?"
It would not necessarily leave a residue if exposed to the elements. It would very likely be dissolved in the same method acid-rain attacks stonework of any and all buildings - only more so, as the residue has a lower acidity than acid rain, which is largely sulfurous,
Stronger acids, such as sulfuric acids, easily dissolve the
cyanides. The compounds of cyanide ions with heavy metals are
longer lasting. This includes the already mentioned Prussian
blue, although this will also slowly dissolve in an acidic
environment.
That's from the same Krakow Insitute as you cite. See 3.
3) You claim that the "Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow decided to conduct their own forensic tests to see if they could refute Fred Leuchter's findings.....Their own tests got back the same results...
WRONG.
The Krakow Institute also tested proper control sites - living quarters - and they found NO RESIDUAL TRACES - although they certainly did find vestigial traces in the chambers - AS DID LEUCHTER.
Why is this important? Because LEUCHTER claimed the residual traces found in the gassing sites were the remnants of Nazi fumigation efforts to avoid Typhoid. They had been sprayed with Prussian Blue/Zyklon B/hydrogen cyanide as decontamination efforts - so Leuchter claims.
HOWEVER - the control samples - from the living quarters were ALSO sprayed with ZyklonB/hydrogen cyanide - as part of the same fumigation efforts -- AND YET SHOWED NO RESIDUAL CONTAMINATION EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN LESS EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS THAN THE CHAMBERS.
Plus, the crematoria weren't even there when the fumigations against Typhoid happened! They were built later.
This is from the Krakow Institute which you cited:
The present study shows that in spite of the passage of a considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of the facilities which once were in contact with hydrogen cyanide the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide compounds occur in the building materials only locally, in the places where the conditions arose for their formation and persistence for such a long time.
In his reasoning Leuchter claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/final-remarks.html
---------
Still - I'd like to know what you think happened to those deemed "WORTHLESS" and UNASSIGNED. What happened to them after that, Mr Dees?
And errr....like Larry says.....What on earth do you mean by claiming Hitler was framed?
How far do your Nazi apologetics extend?
What do you mean when you say "Hitler was framed"?
If he was framed, what happened to the 450,000 from Warsaw ghetto?
What happened to the victims of the Einsatzgruppen? Oh - we know - we have their actual official reports to German High Command.
So......what was Hitler "framed" for Mr Dees, and how far does your Nazi sympathy go?
For the record:
The Krakow Institute Report is HERE
HERE
It appears (in full) at Nizkor - a site that refutes holocaust denial.
What it actually says:
The results of analyses are presented in Tables I-IV. They unequivocally show that the cyanide compounds occur in all the facilities that, according to the source data, were in contact with them. On the other hand, they do not occur in dwelling accomodations, which was shown by means of control samples. The concentrations of cyanide compounds in the samples collected from one and the same room or building show great differences. This indicates that the conditions that favour the formation of stable compounds as a result of the reaction of hydrogen cyanide with the components of the walls, occur locally. In this connection it takes quite a large number of samples from a given facility to give us a chance to come upon this sort of local accumulation of cyanide compounds.
HERE
And the conclusions, already quoted:
Final Remarks
The present study shows that in spite of the passage of a considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of the facilities which once were in contact with hydrogen cyanide the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide compounds occur in the building materials only locally, in the places where the conditions arose for their formation and persistence for such a long time.
In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later.
HERE
The Krakow Inst. investigation found residues in all the places expected -- ie the chambers and clothing delousing places, but NOT the living quarters.
The report shows the least weathered and exposed places contained the most residue and also confirmed weathering has a huge impact on reducing residues.
No residues were found in the living quarters, which had been deloused at least once in the same fumigation efforts.
Therefore Leuchter gives the CONFIRMATION of residue a false explanation -- he says Yes it was found, but it was because of delousing/fumigation! Even though the living quarters which had also been fumigated but which had NOT been exposed to the weather, had returned NO EVIDENCE for having residue.
The living quarters would have been more likely to contain residue than the chambers, as they were not so weathered for 50 years(dynamited)
But only IF the chambers' residue was from fumigation!
Of course - IF the residue at the chambers had come from fumigation, it would have been far more likely to have been confirmed in the living quarters too.
The conclusion is that considering the weathering the chambers were exposed to compared the living quarters, to find confirmation of the residues of hydrogen cyanide implies that there was a lot more of it used at the chambers than the living quarters. ie NOT FROM FUMIGATION TO COMBAT TYPHOID etc.
This is further confirmed by the fact that delousing chambers showed relatively high residues. Delousing of clothes was done separately and took much longer than killing people. Obviously. Gassing chambers were cleared out - of gas - so as to facilitate the removal of the bodies. The clothes however could be left defumigating in a single place - for 24 hours, it seems. This, and the fact they weren't blown up by guilty hands trying to hide evidence, explains why there are greater residues at the delousing place, why there were residues at the chambers, but also why there were NO RESIDUES at the living quarters (which had been fumigated during anti-typhus measures which Leuchter wrongly suggests was the source of residues at ALL the chambers.)
Sorry to say the same thing over and over, but with dishonest people you have to try to cover all bases.
David Dees - What do I mean Hitler was framed? Just that.
(frām'ŭp')
n. Informal
1. A scheme to incriminate an innocent person.
Wow - Hitler was "innocent"!
David Dees: to say millions died from a poison that is not testing in the walls, while the actual delousing chamber does test positive is absurd.
WRONG. You don't read so good? There was residue connfirmed at ALL the places - except the living quarters.
RESIDUE AT ALL RELEVANT PLACES - OK?
GO AND ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT YOU CITED?
Dees: There is zero hard evidence that a single person was ever killed in a gas chamber.
Rubbish. Your point lacks specifics.....and as it stands is simply untrue.
You have already retreated from your claims that c.150,000 jews died in the Holocaust. (Without even acknowledging you were simply and obviously wrong.)
Now you are claiming there's no "hard evidence" that anyone "died in a gas chamber".
Somewhat different claims - and you're jumping about between them, without acknowledging the basis of your arguments have been proven false.
Finally you grudgingly acknowledge you do not not know what happened to all the missing people. You have no explanation, and you clearly do not care.
And yet you are certain that their most obvious fate did not actually befall them!
based on rubbish from Hal Turner and the racist neo-nazi crackpots that drive IHR?
David Dees: my claim is simply these gas chambers are a fabrication, totally, not a single jew died in there, no proof at all.
No! You have also claimed 300,000 died in the holocaust, c.40% of whom were Jews.
You also claim there was no residue of hydrogen cyanide found at Auschwitz - when there was - at ALL the relevant sites (except the living quarters).
You also claim Leuchter was a scientist. He is not.
You also claim Hitler was framed - as part of some zino-bolshevist blah blah blah.
All that is essentially irrelevant to the facts of the Holocaust. But interestingly it does provide confirmation that your own view is very similar if not identical to present day neo-nazi explanations. (Not surprising - you are popular at Stormfront - as you surely know.)
Your view of the history picks up the exact same narrative as the Hitlerite explanation for world history - your explanation is from the same mould as formed the primary motivating myths for nazism, aggressive war and the Final Solution.
And you hold to such a position EVEN THOUGH YOUR PREMISES HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG.
Do you KNOW Leuchter is not a scientist - yet still he claim is? Or are you simply mistaken?
Do you KNOW your claims that no residue was found at the gas chambers in Auschwitz is wrong, or are you simply mistaken?
Do you KNOW the Einsatzgruppen murdered more than your c.150,000 which you claimed form the entire Holocaust? Or are you simply ignorant?
In which case - why don't you change your mind when you find out you're wrong? Or mistaken?
If you are consciously lieing there's no reason to expect you to change your mind when you find out you were "wrong".
Because you have no intention of it. Hitler right or wrong. You say he was framed - regardless of the actual facts.
Well done, Mr Dees. Oh truthseeker.
if you claim they were murdered in a gas chamber, you would probably hope you have a ton of solid evidence to point to
Well, we do. We have the fact that we know there were transports from all across occupied Europe.....from the records for domestic train companies etc.
We even know the german railway was paid a fee for each person so carried - equivalent to a 3rd class ticket, which was often charged to the victims themselves.
And then we need to explain where they went.
Well, we know quite a bit about where at least some of them were going - to Auschwitz for example.
Once there, we know the ones capable of slave labour were separated and assigned numbers in the camps. The others, those deemed "worthless" are harder to trace. They weren't to be found at the camps at the end of the war.
And we know there were gas chambers and crematorium at Auschwitz, and the other extermination camps.
We have eye witness testimony, and confessions from Nazis following defeat of Germany, and we have all sorts of captured internal Nazi documents all of which build into an unquestionable conclusion.
And of course we have the framework within which all this coherently fits : the ideological Nazi principle of racism coupled with its anti-semitism as explanation for all of history, and of Germany's defeat in WW1, etc. and the declared policy of the Fuehrer - to therefore exterminate the jews - ENDLOSUNG - based upon such a reading and conception of history and race.
[That's the stuff you're approaching with your zino-bolshevism rubbish....and all that "jewish lie to enslave the world" tripe. It's the same essential conception of history as Hitler's.]
In contrast to all the evidence better people than I can muster - and have done so across 50 years - you offer a link to HAl Turner and Willis Carto's failed rag, the IHR.
You have offered a string of faslifications and lies to support your position - and when proven wrong, you simply change tack. You have completely failed to show the least inclination to adjust your conclusions even when their premises are shown to be WRONG. Rather you offer the claim "Hitler was innocent!"
Pathetic. I thought you'd do better than that. But it's impossible for you to do so as there is simply nothing better you can offer.
Far better people than you have tried, and the only people who can take them seriously are the lunatic Neo Nazis - amongst whom you are popular yourself. Shock!?
If you think the same things as Nazis, Mr Dees, what is the difference between you and those Nazis? If one thinks as a Nazi does, then one is a Nazi, right?
If Hitler was framed, as you believe, then you might have no shame in admitting you share his views more widely, presumably.
Do you, I wonder?
I saw an interesting video on google last night where some priest says he denies anyone died in gas chambers [like Dees says], but one thing that really stood out to me [that I would like Socrates and TLNL to address] is that this priest said that if anyone would have been gassed, the gas would have been so powerful and deadly that when anyone went in later to get the bodies out, the gas was THAT strong that even the people getting the bodies out would have been infected by the gas and died as well. Interesting point. Any thoughts on this?
Dees makes a good point that the holocaust story may have been a fabrication to stop Hitler from being the one true power, BUT where I get lost is why was it necessary [if they were making this up] to say it was 6 million people if it really wasnt? Wouldnt 1 miilion people have been enough to create anger and stop Hitler?
Both of you [Dees/TLNL] make interesting points from time to time but neither one of you presents a "smoking gun" to sway me in one direction.
I'm still not understanding the "framed" issue if Hitler was still responsible for mass murders of people. Questioning the number killed doesnt take away the title of mass murderer. I tried making this point with TLNL and Socrates when I presented the "multi-millionaire" analogy [which they said was stupid, but yet IGNORED it-----because it was really a GREAT analogy]. If I had 20 million dollars or 3 million, Im still a multi-millionaire---same goes with whether 6 million died or 300,000 died, it is STILL a holocaust. "Holocaust" meaning "massive slaughter". Yet, these twits say that even denying ONE death is holocaust denial----DESPITE the fact that TLNL has ADMITTED he has no way to verify EVERY death----which, in essence, is DENYING deaths----which would make HIM a holocaust denier using his OWN words.
David, I realize these two buffoons are lost on the 9-11 story and Ive debunked them endlessly on it, BUT, having said that, I still give people the benefit of the doubt and I dont believe that just because people are completely blind on one issue, they are blind on every issue----even though TLNL and Socrates LOVE to play guilt-by-assocation games and think if youre wrong on one area, youre wrong on them ALL.
You know, having to answer Zio-trash is annoying enough, but here goes. Yes, there were traces of Zyklon B found on the walls, but it is the same amount found in other buildings, they deloused areas, get it? There is a video of Dr. Piper, the curator of the Auschwitz museum holding and discussing the amount found by the Krakow institute, and explaining why the levels are extremely low. Search out David Cole / Dr. piper and you will find it.
So my point about next to zero levels found is valid.
Now you say that the fact there is no blue stains does not bother you. Ok, pure genius, just gloss over it. Got it.
>Dees: There is zero hard evidence that a single person was ever killed in a gas chamber. >Rubbish. Your point lacks specifics.....and as it stands is simply untrue.
Let's see, lacks specifics. Show me one single photograph that proves it, or shows any aspect of a gas chamber killing people, there are none. There is not even any aerial photos that show anything suspicious. You would think that if 6 million people were killed there would be a photograph, or a movie. They filmed every other thing they did, why not that?
And there is no written document that proves an extermination agenda. Prove that, show us one?
There is no forensic evidence of a gas chamber, the walls do not test positive for the amount pointing to a gas chamber, only delousing.
There has never been found the mass graves claimed, ground penetrating radar has exposed that lie.
Ever notice that almost all of the tattoos on the prisoners were only five digits. I thought a million had 7 digits. The few six digit ones I found all started with a one, guess they gassed the other 5, 800,000 thousand with the 7 digit tattoos.
Auschwitz had a swimming pool, a post office, a theatre with regular entertainment, and a brothel. Nightmarish!
The red cross did regular inspections and talked to the prisoners in private, I suppose they forgot to tell the red cross about all the gassings going on.
Oh, and my very favorite, on the Auschwitz tour is the "wall of death" where thousands of jews were shot dead, yet upon examination not a single bullet hole in the wall, wow, really great shots those nazis.
>You have already retreated from your claims that c.150,000 jews died in the Holocaust. (Without even acknowledging you were simply and obviously wrong.)
I have not retreated from anything, your mind is playing tricks again.
>Finally you grudgingly acknowledge you do not not know what happened to all the missing people. You have no explanation, and you clearly do not care.
The camps were liberated, they were not all dead, but there was a typhus epidemic caused by britain and america bombing the roads and train tracks, many starved to death, but this was caused by the war and intentional destruction of supply routes.
>You also claim there was no residue of hydrogen cyanide found at Auschwitz - when there was - at ALL the relevant sites (except the living quarters).
the living quarters were deloused also.
>You also claim Leuchter was a scientist. He is not.
He is a gas chamber expert who tested the samples, that qualifies as a scientist in my book, or using scientific analysis to prove his points.
>You also claim Hitler was framed - as part of some zino-bolshevist blah blah blah.
Hitler was framed, the gas chambers are a total fabrication. 9/11 was an inside job, and so was the Oklahoma city bombing, so were the London bombings, all to further political agendas. Grow up. Wake up.
Hey Larry, my patience is wearing thin concerning your lying. I don't blog on 9/11 conspiracy theory except for rare occasions, so stop posting otherwise.
There's the possibility that David Dees doesn't even believe half the shite he says. If you notice, TLNL, he hasn't had one bad word to say about Stormfront. That's because he's laughing his way to the bank off of their donations. I think it would help him to be less of a neonazi supporter for guys like Larry, but not at the expense of alienating his true supporters. This is why he ignores the fact that a big chunk of his support is from neonazis.
I hate to link to Stormfront, but at this url one can see that Dees has emailed them and asked for donations. He is crying poverty. His cat got injured. He gave one address for donations and then another one for those under $100. This Holocaust denier and conspiracy theory freak knows where his bread is buttered. Only white supremacists and other numbnuts would ever give him a dime.
I also notice this dude has a lot of praise for David Icke. Maybe Dees thinks I'm a reptile? And for the record I'm not a satanist. I do enjoy some Ozzie Osbourne like anyone else with good taste in music.
As for you Larry, I'm done. I don't care what you say or do. I'd rather you do it elsewhere.
In summation, there's no incentive for David Dees to debate fairly. His appearance here has been done as an advertisement for chumps who would actually donate money to him or buy his products. He doesn't need to add up, for the people who think for themselves and fact check things, they can see what he's all about. I think at this point, TLNL, we are pissing into the wind. The trolls have been bashed. It could be time to get back on topic. Why suffer such fools?
Socrates, in my last post I wanted your input on why the priest I saw in the video said that the people [Nazis] who got the bodies out of the gas chambers would have been killed by the powerful, deadly gas as well------you conveniently and blatantly IGNORED it.
See David, thats what these guys do! They IGNORE very good questions even when the question is not asked in an entrapping nature. I just wanted his view on what that priest said....plain and simple. I asked him a simple question. He IGNORES it. His post offered NO proof of anything he believes in. It was just a big rant that had NO connection whatsoever with ANYTHING that was previously said----then he rambles about Stormfront, as if THAT debunks you Dave.
That's what these guys do. Its who they are: master deceivers. When they refuse to answer questions, they ad hominem attack you to death, ignore, deflect, divert away from anything you ask or say.
You said:
"You seem to have the mental abilities of a fifth grader. Nothing personal either."---but yet its YOU that refuses to answer SIMPLE questions Socrates. Who's the 5th grader? I think even a THIRD grader would have NOT ignored my question about the priest----but...YOU did.
WHO has mental issues??
The Stormfront comments are yet MORE guilt by association ramblings---but yet they IGNORE when I talk about their connection with Zionist gatekeepers Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. Everytime I mention that, not a PEEP about it in their next post.
Zinn and Chomsky have both said they dont care about false flag terror and dont care even if 9-11 was an inside job. Socrates and TLNL have IGNORED comments I posted by both Chomsky and Zinn.
Why would Socrates and TLNL think Hitler was such a bad guy if the very people they follow [Zinn and Chomsky] dont care about false flag terror---and Hitler had his own Reichstag firebombed in 1933, which was the catalyst for murdering all the people they say was murdered???
Does ANY of that make sense??
But they CONTINUALLY IGNORE IT.
WHY?????????????????
TLNL also believes in global warming too----and yet he does NOTHING in his personal life to prevent it. I asked him on my blog:
1. Do you use light bulbs?
2. Do you drive a car?
3. Do you use electricity?
4. Do you use a computer? [obviously he does]
All these things contribute to global warming [so the GW frauds say], yet TLNL keeps using these things and continues to make 'global warming' worse.
Why does he contribute to GW? He IGNORES when I ask this.
WHY?????????
David, what video shows this Dr Piper guy? Is it on google video? What is the name of the movie?
i think this is the video, L
But note it's produced by CODOH - go and also find other sources to verify F Piper's apparent position.
I would watch for careful edits.
----------
David Dees: Lieing? You really think I believe other than what I say?
Well, you have said a number of things which are definitely false.
You either know they are false when you say them, or you don't.
Here is the first part of the David Cole, Dr. Piper interview
√=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKOJHo1CYz8&feature=related
whoops, here is the one where Piper talks about residue...
at 2:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEx4akbT5ww&NR=1
.
this priest said that if anyone would have been gassed, the gas would have been so powerful and deadly that when anyone went in later to get the bodies out, the gas was THAT strong that even the people getting the bodies out would have been infected by the gas and died as well. Interesting point. Any thoughts on this?
Yep - forced ventilation and gas masks.
usually it takes 20 hours before re-entering a place so gassed - but that's because of normal humane considerations and the presence of carpets, rugs, materials etc which retain the gas. the gas chambers were flat-walled with no artifacts - not even clothes.
The Germans were well used to gas.....they tried all sorts of methods and gained much experience from the initial efforts against "socially undesirable elements" - disabled, criminals, the insane, the old, whatever.
Then they scaled-up.
There's quite a bit of information about that.....macabre, but it leaves no doubt for me that they knew exactly what they were doing, and they had to put all the pieces in place......to set about a definite task they'd given themselves. To imagine all these various avneues were invented after or during the war to form some grand hoax is frankly mad imo.
There is no doubt about the calculated barbarity of Nazism - as an example we can take their overall plan for the Est, and its KNOWN and ANTICIPATED consequence:
How many Russian civilians would die as a result of this deliberate German policy? A meeting of state secretaries on May 2nd had already given a general answer. "There is no doubt," a secret memorandum of the conference declared, "that as a result, many millions of persons will be starved to death if we take out of the country the things necessary for us." And Goering had said, and Rosenberg, that they would be taken out - that much had to be "clearly and absolutely understood."
Pg 833 - Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L Shirer. Random House.
Framed?
Here's the explanation for the delousing places showing higher concentrations:
Both toxicological study and practical experience demonstrate that it takes a much higher concentration of cyanide (16,000 parts per million) to kill insects than to kill humans (300 PPM), as well as an exposure time of many hours rather than only minutes.
Im posting this again because it gets CONTINUALLY ignored by TLNL:
The Stormfront comments are yet MORE guilt by association ramblings---but yet they IGNORE when I talk about their connection with Zionist gatekeepers Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky. Everytime I mention that, not a PEEP about it in their next post.
Zinn and Chomsky have both said they dont care about false flag terror and dont care even if 9-11 was an inside job. Socrates and TLNL have IGNORED comments I posted by both Chomsky and Zinn.
Why would Socrates and TLNL think Hitler was such a bad guy if the very people they follow [Zinn and Chomsky] dont care about false flag terror---and Hitler had his own Reichstag firebombed in 1933, which was the catalyst for murdering all the people they say was murdered???
Does ANY of that make sense??
But they CONTINUALLY IGNORE IT.
WHY?????????????????
TLNL also believes in global warming too----and yet he does NOTHING in his personal life to prevent it. I asked him on my blog:
1. Do you use light bulbs?
2. Do you drive a car?
3. Do you use electricity?
4. Do you use a computer? [obviously he does]
All these things contribute to global warming [so the GW frauds say], yet TLNL keeps using these things and continues to make 'global warming' worse.
Why does he contribute to GW? He IGNORES when I ask this.
WHY?????????
This will be your one and only warning, Larry. If you start spamming this thread like you did at TLNL's, your posts will be deleted on sight and possibly everything you ever write from then on will be also.
For one thing, this thread isn't about global warming or 9/11. Secondly, this isn't Fox News, and for someone who criticises O'Reilly and Hannity a lot, you tend to act like them. That's no surprise, as with all your differences, you still ultimately are desendents of the same wingnut genealogy. You think bullying and demanding attention will get you answers?
And to be blunt, your question about Zinn and Chomsky having anything at all to do with Hitler is a total mind bender. Here's a hint for you. I don't care about 9/11 conspiracy theory or how Zinn and Chomsky have dealt with it. I haven't even read much Chomsky. I did read Zinn's A People's History of the US. Maybe you should sit back and let TLNL and Dees go toe to toe. You're kind of getting in the way at this point. And to repeat, don't keep spamming with your copy and paste question schtick. If no one answers, the reader can decide whatever they want. I guess you missed where I wrote above that I don't care about what you think or post anymore, but that I'd rather you do it elsewhere. Start spamming this thread, and I will not hesitate to delete your words.Stop acting like a fifth grader. Go get yourself some milk and cookies and chill.
>I hate to link to Stormfront, but at this url one can see that Dees has emailed them and asked for donations.
Wrong again. I collect years of fanmail, so when my cat was hit by a car he needed a 3 thousand dollar operation, so in desparation I took the email addresses from the fanmail and made a plea to them. Apparently one of them posted it on Stormfront. I got the money in one week. My fans are great.
So stuff it sicko.
>He gave one address for donations and then another one for those under $100.
because paypal charges add up when you get into big bucks, checks are better in case.
Just curious, how old are you, keeps sounding like you are pretty young, probably in your twenties, am I right?
>This Holocaust denier and conspiracy theory freak knows where his bread is buttered. Only white supremacists and other numbnuts would ever give him a dime.
I will tell you that the highest donor was Len Horowitz, a jew.
wrong again fat boy.
David Dees: I took the email addresses from the fanmail and made a plea to them. Apparently one of them posted it on Stormfront. I got the money in one week. My fans are great.
nazis too
LOL, quite funny Socrates. I love when I ask HARD, IRREFUTABLE questions, then you say "the topic isnt about that", but when I mentioned the JFK assassination [which also the thread is NOT about] you didnt object at all, because you AGREE with me on it.
BUT, when the questions are HARD and you have NO answer whatsoever, then Im "spamming" the thread. You just get funnier and funnier.
"If no one answers, the reader can decide whatever they want."
Translation: They can decide NOT to answer because they HAVE no answer and it cant be refuted, so they can choose to IGNORE it over and over. Amusing.
Funny how you say dont get off topic, but then you say "Larry sit back and let TLNL and Dees go at it"---well, the thread was ABOUT me right???
You keep saying youre done with me but you keep talking to me---why??
Your posts are nothing but a smorgasbord of contradictions! LOL
The thread is NOT about Stormfront either, but you and TLNL can keep mentioning that ad nauseum and its NOT an issue! I go outside the thread topic and it wont be tolerated! Im dying of laughter here!
David, see how hypocritical they are?
It shouldnt matter what the fucking "topic" is, if you can answer a question, why not just answer it?
YOUR words Socrates:
"I hate to link to Stormfront, but at this url one can see that Dees has emailed them and asked for donations. He is crying poverty. His cat got injured. He gave one address for donations and then another one for those under $100. This Holocaust denier and conspiracy theory freak knows where his bread is buttered. Only white supremacists and other numbnuts would ever give him a dime."
What does THAT have to do with the topic? Not a goddamned thing, but its ALLOWED with you, right???? You big walking contradiction!
Gonna play the Andy Ostroy card now? DELETE my comments and say to everyone that I was "spamming" the thread and using nasty language and violating blogger.com's rules?? Yep, you will. I'll sit back and wait for the deletion. LOL
Larry - you asked a question - i answered. you ignore the answer and start shouting about something completely irrelevant.
Gas-masks and forced ventilation was used for the chambers.
running trucks with exhausts emptying into the rear (full of prisoners) wasn't killing quickly or efficiently enough.
the capacity of the crematoria at Auschwitz was c.5000 a day. We have seen indications for the numbers the Einsatzgruppen were dealing with. We know Warsaw ghetto was cleared out of c.450,000.
Do you accept these things, or not?
Do you believe Dees' claim that 300,000 died in the holocaust, and that 40% of those were jews?
Do you believe the Krakow Institute's report and its implications for use of hydrogen cyanide at the chambers and the krema?
What happened to those deemed "worthless"?
What about the Einsatzgruppen?
What on earth are you "agnostic" about? You either believe them, or you don't. If you don't, you are a holocaust denier. (Holocaust minimiser in your preferred term.....same thing)
Dude, just don't copy and paste the same questions over and over again like you did at TLNL's, and I won't delete your posts. I also have asked nicely for everyone to keep the cursing to a minimum. Those two requests shouldn't be that difficult to abide to. I'm not anal. I'm actually not a newbie with some fight club forum action. But it gets stale quick when people are throwing around the swear words and spamming questions over and over again. Try to be a more creative troll is all I ask of you, Lord Larry, the Earl of Rense.
There's a big difference between bringing up Stormfront versus your pet projects of 9/11 conspiracy theory and global warming debunking. I can't even remember at this point what we were saying about the JFK assassination. Whatever. That one is actually a conspiracy theory which deems respect, unlike this Holocaust denying crap.
Well, I think Dees has exposed himself as a grifter. Anyone can look at his resume and wonder why he would have to grovel like a baby for three grand. I don't think his cat even believes 90% of what Dees is talking about.
And now I see this dude is a big fan of David Icke, he of the NWO is led by reptillian blood schtick. I'm not sure, but he also might have an illustration devoted to saying no one ever landed on the moon. And Larry, such things like Stormfront and this moon thingie are raised, because they go directly to the heart of Dees' lack of credibility.
He knows he can't come up with any "proof" the Holocaust never happened without leaning on neonazi propaganda. The guy's got absolutely nothing, squat, zilch, nada showing doubts about the Holocaust. Like I said previously, he doesn't even seem to care that he looks like an idiot. Because he's a grifter. He's out to make a buck off of conspiracy theory freaks and racists. He found his niche market. What good people out there might want to do is contact his employers such as Sesame Street and whomever and let them know that David Dees is a prominent Holocaust denier, i.e. a douchebag. Maybe Dees is really upset because he didn't get any of that special Jewish blood yet still has a Jewish first name. Nah, he's a grifter. Oh, my kitty need money. Send checks asap skinheads. I'm not a Jew or reptillian. Together we shall overcome those evil, satanic Joooos. p:>
I watched some of David Cole videos---interesting. I still havent seen a smoking gun yet, but its interesting. Are there any full length documentaries about this?
David Dees: and not a single photo or document to back it up
What a joke.
Round the mulberry bush again.
Quite simply you refuse to acknowledge the facts : when confronted with your own lies you shamelessly just pass on to your next falsification, as if nothing happened.
L: I still havent seen a smoking gun yet
try actually reading some of the posts then Larry? Try going to some of the links - READ THEM?
Try this from Himmler speaking at Posen:
"I am referring to the Jewish evacuation programme, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things which are easy to talk about. 'The Jewish people will be exterminated', says every party comrade, 'It's clear, it's in our programme. Elimination of the Jews, extermination and we'll do it.'
We have a very easy test of your "objectivity" -
If Larry and David Dees had Dick Cheney saying about 911 what Himmler did about the Final Solution - you would not hesitate to scream you had found your smoking gun.
Pathetically you pretend you have a smoking gun for 911 when you don't - and deny we have them for the holocaust - which we do. in spades.
I don't see how you can say anything about this - if you had Cheney claiming his guilt about 911 as specifically and forthrightly as Himmler had at Posen about the Holocaust, you would not hesitate to believe it.
THAT is the measure of your intellectual corruption.
Larry, I told you not to spam repeated questions. If you do that even one more time, you are banned. Anything you write will be deleted on sight. So don't do it, or you're banned for spamming.
Next time perhaps say, TLNL, you didn't answer my questions concerning global warming I posted at whatever time. So don't say you answered my questions.
That's it Larry. No more warnings. You want to post here, stop doing that.
And to you Dees, whatever. You may fool your neonazi supporters, but you're not fooling the other 99% plus of people who know that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. I'm not going to waste another second on either you or your new friend. If TLNL wants to continue to shoot you down fine.
Larry, I have no idea how you can stomach these two, notice how I post a video interview with Dr. Piper showing the actual forensic testing, and not a word from these morons. Figures.
No - I had posted the Krakow Institute Forensic Report which you had misrepresented.
I pointed out - and linked to - how the report completely refuted both your claims, and the report you had based your claims upon - the Leuchter Report.
I also pointed out how you lied about Leuchter being a scientist - he isn't.
I also pointed out that you had lied about the findings of the Krakow report - and misrepresnted their findings: I pointed out that you had lied that the Krakow Institute report had found no cyanide traces in the gas chambers - whereas in fact they did.
I also pointed out that you lied that the ICRC had claimed 300,000 killed in Holocaust.
Your lies, or your mistakes?
Does it matter which?
As I said - if you already know they are lies, then we shouldn't expect you to reconsider your conclusions having found your premises were wrong - you knew them to be lies all along.
On the other hand, if you were simply mistaken, we would expect you to re-evaluate the facts based on your changed premises and knowledge of the facts.
You refuse to change your mind.
So, either you're a liar, or a fool.
He's making money off of being a Holocaust denier and conspiracy theory freak. He doesn't even probably believe any of it. If he told the truth, he'd have to find a new schtick. Anyone can see how he groveled for donations to pay for his cat's surgery. He's a con artist. He's a form of Brett Kimberlin. Just making stuff up to make money. He likes money more than integrity.
I should have said alleged surgery. One can look at his resume. Just look at how popular his illustrations are. He's selling t-shirts and other crap. He offers his photoshopping art services for prospective clients. This guy reeks of money. Though it doesn't stop him from coming up with new scams to ask for donations. Why on Earth would anyone ask for donations like that? Anyone who asks for donations over the internet should be under suspicion. Many do. Wells does. BradBlog does. Yeah, let's give Brad Friedman money to spread hoaxes and smear one of the most progressive politicians in America, Jan Schakowsky. These guys will probably send him and Sibel a few bucks, though, since Jan Schakowsky is a JOOO! Ooops, I take that back. Some of their best friends are Jews. The good ones who know their place. fu=
yeah - impressive ain't it? making money out of holocaust-denial .....
and hell - it's a tough ole world when you don't have 3k to fix up a cat. No wonder Dees is always complaining.....
Larry, here is the David Cole interview with Dr. Piper complete. I doubt the thumbsuckers would be interested in walking through the fake gas chamber at auschwitz and seeing it first hand, they like they fantasy world of 6 million. Wow, 6 million and no blue stains, amazing. 6 million and nobody knows where the bodies are buried, magic. 6 million and almost no traces of the poison in the walls, as backed up by Dr. Piper in the video. But ballsack there is convinced there is poison, just Leuchter could not find it. haha. Hey kids, my car needs a good washing, make yourself useful for a change.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/Freiheit/videos/3/
Why are you so insistent on ignoring the topic and content of the thread, Larry?
You might at least do that, even as you voice all your irrelevant points?
Larry: you have not PROVEN I deny the holocaust. I NEVER said I did....NEVER.
Larry - simply asserting that you don't deny the Holocaust is not enough.
GRanted - you have seemingly always claimed to "not deny the Holocaust".
But when we get to the details.....you have shown no positive belief in ANY of the actual details and substance of the Holocaust.
When you deny the actual details and substance of the Holocaust.....then you are denying the Holocaust.
You are saying you believe in arithmetic, but you deny 2+2=4
See - Dees certainly is a Holocaust Denier. And you haven't disagreed with Dees' claims once. Not once.
And you haven't agreed with anything that has been posted from Nizkor about UNASSIGNED people, the large cremation capacities, the Einsatzgruppen reports, the Krakow Inst. forensic study, etc etc.
You've said nothing in support of the details and evidence for the Holocaust - and you've said absolutely nothing criticial or disbelieving about any of Dees' lies in denial of the Holocaust.
Other people will look at the evidence regarding your views - not just your own description of yourself. Your personal description of your own views is just that - your own view of your own view.
Larry said:
Both of you [Dees/TLNL] make interesting points from time to time but neither one of you presents a "smoking gun" to sway me in one direction.
Dees' position is one of unequivocal Holocaust denial.
HITLER = FRAMED
That's more than mere Holocaust denial......but it certainly is Holocaust denial, you will agree, Larry, yes?
As I quoted above, you assert you "are not swayed either way".
Neither towards holocaust denial......NOR TOWARDS WHAT?
High school tenth grader TLNL writes...
I pointed out - and linked to - how the report completely refuted both your claims, and the report you had based your claims upon - the Leuchter Report.
Leuchter did find it.
Leuchter did find it.
Leuchter did find it.
Leuchter did find it.
Haha, a baby throwing a tantrum,
Don't get your panties in bunch there acne boy,
On April 20 and 21, 1988, Leuchter took the stand as an expert witness in the courtroom in Toronto. He reported about his research and developed his conclusions. The atmosphere in the courtroom was tense. Leuchter's testimony was straightforward and at the same time sensational: According to Leuchter, there had never been any possibility of mass extermination of human beings by gassing in Auschwitz, nor in Birkenau, nor in Majdanek:[26]
"It is the best engineering opinion of this author that the alleged gas chambers at the inspected sites could not have then been, or now, be utilized or seriously considered to function as execution gas chambers."
Following Leuchter, Prof. James Roth, director of a chemical laboratory in Massachusetts, also took the witness stand to describe the results of his analysis of the 32 masonry samples, the origins of which had been unknown to him: All samples taken from the gas chambers supposedly used for mass human extermination exhibited either no or only negligible traces of cyanide, while the sample from the delousing chambers taken for use as control purposes exhibited enormously high cyanide concentrations.[27]
Leuchter's report and subsequent testimony shook the foundations of Holocaust history, the story of the 'Nazi gas chambers'. Considering the tens of thousands of copies of this "Leuchter Report" that have been distributed in all major languages all over the world and the many speeches Leuchter held, the impact of the work of this one man was enormous.
http://www.germarrudolf.com/work/trr/2.html
"But when we get to the details.....you have shown no positive belief in ANY of the actual details and substance of the Holocaust.
When you deny the actual details and substance of the Holocaust.....then you are denying the Holocaust.
You are saying you believe in arithmetic, but you deny 2+2=4"
First of all, another amazingly idiotic analogy.
Secondly, Im shocked that you hold the views you do TLNL [well, not really]. What HARD evidence really IS there that so many people were killed? I mean, REALLY. The photographs of large groups of people [which Ive never seen actual footage of anyone being gassed, but theres plenty of footage of people being shot], movies depicting the holocaust, the concentration camps, the pictures of piles of bodies, the museums they hve now with all the clothes, hair, belongings taken from people. What HARD evidence is there? But yet, you accept it all as if its as clear as day 6 million died.
But with 9-11, there is PLENTY of hard evidence there is a cover-up, yet you just dismiss it as nothing more than circumstantial anomolies that could have 10 different explanations.
I say the Pentagon didnt have a hole big enough to fit a plane---you say there's 10 different reasons for that.
I say building 7 not mentioned in the 9-11 commission---YOU say 10 different reasons for that.
I say theres NO plane parts at the Shanksville site on 9-11-----again, you say 10 different reasons for that.
I say building 7 collapsed into its own footprint although damage was minimal, yet buildings that were right next to the twin towers that suffered MORE damage and had blazing fires did NOT collapse---you say "im not an architect" and there could be many reasons for that. [despite the fact that Richard Gage IS an architect, but his views are bullshit, right?]
The bottom line is this TLNL:
When you ACCEPT something to be true, you will believe it to be true regardless of lack of video evidence, revisionist accounts and documented facts.
When you REJECT something as being true, you reject it to be true DESPITE video evidence, revisionist accounts and documented facts.
Larry, I told you not to use that kind of foul language. Hence, your recent post was deleted. I also asked you nicely to not spam the same questions over and over again. Hence, those were deleted.
Looking through the main diary, I don't believe I ever called you a Holocaust denier. I wrote that you support Holocaust denial. You link to two websites of well-known Holocaust denier David Dees. Thus, you are in a way supporting Holocaust denial.
As for the placement of your images, I offered to take them down. You did not take me up on that offer. You are the one who has posted them on your website.
I recommend you see a psychiatrist and work out some type of medication regiment, so you won't be in so much mental anguish.
As for your threat of suing me, I don't see how you have a case. Strange how you bring out the lawsuit word, once I followed through on deleting any of your posts that couldn't abide to my two simple rules. If you don't want to be permanently banned from this website, you're going to have to chill out. Otherwise I'll consider you as no different as the person who has repeatedly posted that I am someone named Jay Reynolds, a former close associate of another conspiracy theory freak named William Cooper. I don't suffer fools. Cut it out.
Dees quoting Leuchter in Court -
""It is the best engineering opinion of this author that....""
Leuchter is NOT an engineer. He was sued and eventually settled - part of which was his affidavit to CEASE pretending to be an engineer.
Hey TLNL, this might interest you. Stephen Gowans, one of those blokes who has gone after Giordano, the ICNC, etc. has censored my posts. I guess he didn't want to hear the truth about the Iranian President being a Holocaust denier. I also find it suspicious that someone in his position would be unaware of the proof out there proving Ahmadinejad is indeed a denier.
link
I didn't want to censor Larry, but he left me no choice. Perhaps I will go with your style and not permanently ban him. But if he spams or uses excessive foul language as personal putdowns, I don't think I'm in the wrong for censoring him. It's sometimes a tricky situation to be a moderator.
yeah - i got emailed Larry's comments.
I don't blame you removing it - it's irrelevant and cussin, and err mighty grumpy. lol
All he had to do was post on topic, not spam and not swear so spitefully.
he has some form Tourettes?
He posted nothing on the subject.
Straight away - Larry's off topic, swearing aggresively, and IGNORING the issues.
Such as - you claim you're no holocaust denier. But you admit you see "no smoking gun", you aren't convinced "EITHER WAY" (!), and you show no belief in the facts of and substance of the holocaust whilst you show absolutely zero criticism of Dees' OBVIOUS LIES in support for his obvious and definite Holocaust denial.
Get real, Larry? Who do you think you're fooling?
It's pitiful when this guy becomes so mean and nasty. People wouldn't believe how vile he can get. The irony is in some ways he acts out in fascistic manners, the very thing his brand of wingnut alleges to despise. Other times, he's like a spoiled child who starts crying when he doesn't get what he wants.
He rails against totalitarianism yet exhibits all the signs of being part and parcel of it. He is the proverbial useful idiot.
This guy is scary. He needs counseling and also apparently some medication. It's very sad to see this.
Larry,
these kids have shown you over and over they are dumbed down by the system, and support it like an abusive father who tortures them, they worship it, they adore being lied to. Both of these children are a couple of racists who just want to suck you into their ignorance, are you going to let them? Arguments are fun till you realize the bum you are arguing with is sitting in his own excrement like these two are. Let them smirk and babble, it fits them. This is the zionist owned wikipedia works perfectly for these types, all it has to do say the testing by Leuchter has doubt and these fools buy it hook, line, sinker, and boat. The only reason I am fascinated by such a mentality is watch the levels in which it fools and destroys it's sense of truth and reality, and these two are tops in that field. Again, they are the final product of the dumbing down process, all hail the new world order, makes lots of furry robots that follow the system. haha.
You're pretty much repeating yourself Dees. Except now you have thrown in a new one. Myself and TLNL are racists? Are you willing to admit that the people posting at Stormfront, those you suckered into donations for your cat's surgery, are racists? Or are you saying we are racists against the white race?
haha - we're racists - but Hitler was innocent!
I'm quite surprised Dees has proven himself so dim. how disappointing.
Thinking coherently proves a little more tricky for Dees than putting his propaganda pictures together in photoshop, eh? lol
And honesty is even more difficult for Dees than thinking, apparently.
I'm glad he showed - hopefully anyone searching for him in future will now at least have a chance to see how many lies he tells ....and keeps telling....even after shown to be completely wrong.
He's determined to retain his view regardless of the evidence otherwise.
And what's his view? Dees is a crude little holocaust denier whom believes "Hitler was Framed". Dees bases this on "information" from sources such as Hal Turner and Willis Carto's old rag the IHR.
Dees' intellectual bankcruptcy is measured by his dismissal of Himmler's speech at Posen about the Holocaust....which if given by Dick Cheney about 911 would be considered by Dees (and co) as absolute rock-solid proof of 911 being an "inside job".
Consider ---- Dees and co already think they have "proof" of 911 being "inside job"....though of course, their "proof" has substance and scope far, far below the level of evidence that exists for the holocaust.
And yet they deny the Holocaust, and absolutely believe 911 conspiracy!
HAHA -
In the presence of good evidence - they disbelieve.
In the absense of good evidence - they believe.
Nutters. It's no surprise their "movement" is an abject failure. How can it fail to be with a method like that? haha
Yea man, you two are total racist scum, you support Israel don't you? Enough said, Israel is a "jewish state", why do you think they are killing and maiming the palestinians? It was past racism, this is outright genocide, the systematic culling of a whole people. You two are smirking little racist scum, zionists, probably jewish, supporting and adoring the cancerous illegal state of Israel. Racists to the bone, and completely unaware, classic pair of racists, you two. haha.
I noticed you added the "Hitler Framed" picture. Thanks. It's very striking isn't it?
It's a powerful indictment - of Dees.
I think it shows the exact narrative of the critics' view.
It's perfect - as an indictment.
Exoneration of Hitler, the patriot movement, and Osama. Lots of threads through all that, but sticking to the claims about Hitler for the moment, Dees says:
1 - Gas Chamber walls test negative for Zyklon B
[---- We know that's wrong. Both Leuchter and Krakow Institute found traces. In these comments here on this thread Dees himself has retreated from his picture by claiming there wasn't enough Zyklon B found! Totally contradicting his picture, of course - which claims none was found.------]
2 - Zyklon B causes blue stains.
[---- It can. Everyone agrees some of the delousing chamber wall areas show blue stains - but not all of them do. Further, the delousing chambers should be expected to show greater evidence for Zyklon B (easier to kill humans than fleas) - and they do. They also weren't blown to pieces by Nazis trying to destroy evidence. However, tests on the living quarters, which were subjected to small doses of Zyklon B, show no evidence for Zyklon B. Therefore the finding of Zyklon B at the gas chambers and krema - by both Leuchter and Krakow - suggest there was far greater use of Zyklon B at the gas chambers and Krema than the living quarters. ---------]
So - Dees' premises for his exoneration of Hitler's guilt are totally untrue. HE either purposefully lies about his evidence, or is simply too ignorant to understand its falsity.
When confronted with the actual facts, Dees simply ignores them.
Same as Larry.
ah - the formatting is screwed?
too many posts? knickers
ah - my bad - they just nest em.
I know nothing about Stormfront, are they racists like you two? I found a thread one time where they were discussing my art, I found it amusing. I don't agree with anything racist, I expose racist and bigots like yourself. I find people like you disgusting, supporting and promoting an illegally created state like this pariah Israel, you should be ashamed of yourself. Instead, you ramble on and on with ignorant stupid faces about the holohoax, totally unaware of the cruel, pornographically violent system that uses you both like useful idiots.
You disgust me. But soon enough you will be mincemeat in your Israel machine.
What? No comment on my new Ernst Zundel art? www.rense.com Zionist scum like yourselves make it illegal to discuss the holocaust and the facts, but you love your freedoms taken away. You deserve nothing but enslavement for being so stupid.
David Dees:
I know nothing about Stormfront..................................................................I found a thread one time where they were discussing my art, I found it amusing.
HAHA - you find something you know nothing about "amusing".
You know that some place you "know nothing about" was discussing your propaganda....
HAHA.
How did you come to be amused at reading about yourself at a place you (still) know nothing about?
Actually, what's amusing is that you imagine people will accept the complete tripe you churn out.
David Dees: I expose racist and bigots like yourself.
And Hitler was innocent, right?
You're a joke.
Oh yeah on the "Framed" thing being added. Even though I am a historic troll, I can be quite charming and accomodating when I put my noggin to it. p:>
I think Dees is a rich man. A fundraiser for a cat? If he's so about the Palestinians, has he done a fundraiser for them? Does he give a portion of his income for his t-shirts, mugs, and whatever to their cause? I doubt it.
And what's so difficult about giving an opinion on Stormfront? Is he ignoring that one, because he knows they are the ones most likely to buy his stuff?
Good on google for nesting the comments on a new page. I was worried earlier the software would start to garble the text. Maybe we should see how far we can go and try to get in the Guinness Book of World Records, or better yet, drink some Guinness.
Thanks TLNL very much for covering the necessary details to debunk these twisted buggers. Obviously you have done your homework. I'm sure most of the readers are very appreciative also.
I'm busy looking into this Stephen Gowans dude. I'm starting to get a bad feeling about him. He shouldn't have deleted my posts. He deleted one of his own also, for crying out loud or the sake of Pete.
My take is that there can be complexities to this world that don't get covered by the internet. I asked him why can't both sides stink in Iran? As in why can't the theocracy be no good along with the kinder and gentler imperialism? And why can't the possibility also be that an organic peoples' movement is growing in Iran spontaneously, but that the Western groups, e.g. the one's associated to Ackerman and others, are trying to manipulate that?
I want to figure out who he is, truly, and what his income is. I already see he has been backing the Iranian theocracy. I also see he has backed Mugabe of Zimbwawe in a no questions asked sort of way. Oh well, I too am getting off-topic. I better stop before Larry blows another fuse. Later.
Can we be sure this is really David Dees? Well, if it is, I think it shows that he knows where his bread is buttered. If so, he's just play acting as being unintelligent. That's my take. Like when Rivero feigns bad spelling. Trying to look like Joe six-pack. Like this guy. Stormfront? I done never heard of those guys. Just noticed they liked my stuff and send me money.
y - a lot of lefties are susceptible to error too, i guess. everyone is?
i think that dude is complacent. he raises important issues.....and has some good info, i think, from only a quick look. But he seems so rigid......and lacking a sense of "what if i'm wrong?" A lot of lefties supported Stalin, right? [the signing of the nazi-soviet pact is perhaps the most dramatic example of ideological blindness - whereby lefties swung from initial extreme anti-nazism (even social democrats were regarded as "social fascists"), into support for the pact, and then following Barbarossa, back into anti-Nazism. Not everyone who did that was an idiot......well, apart fromt the fact they did shift like that. Clever people moved like that. Or at least said they did. The events of history exposed them.....a valuable lesson, I think. (just like history exposes all prophets....like Alex Jones. lol)]
oh yeah!
haha - I forgot about that. He had Lament of the Kitty posted there........and yet still he knows nothing about the place.
This is the truthseeker, David Dees!
Apparently. lol
Jackass writes:Consider ---- Dees and co already think they have "proof" of 911 being "inside job"....though of course, their "proof" has substance and scope far, far below the level of evidence that exists for the holocaust.
I suppose that is why they made it illegal to disagree with the holocaust, or to bring up evidence in court, because there it is so obvious 6 million died. Why make it illegal to discuss, what do you have to hide?
I agree with you David----these two turds are complete Zionist, bootlicking android gatekeepers. Why do you think they delete my posts?
They say Im off topic with global warming, yet they can be off topic with Stormfront and JFK, thats perfectly OK. I mention GW and Im deleted, all because TLNL wont EVER answer why he keeps contributing to global warming by using light bulbs, computers and driving cars [because he CANT answer it without exposing himself as the big FRAUD he is].
Im done with these farts.
Larry, you know why those few posts were deleted. The first because you kept spamming the same questions over and over again. The others because you were disturbing the peace. F you whatever directed straight at people is a no go. I hope you are gone. You are utterly boring and have nothing to offer.
I agree with your assessment of Gowans, TLNL. He's too rigid. Everything about him is anti-kinder and gentler imperialism to the point in whcih he becomes a caricature. He ends up supporting a vicious dictator in Mugabe. He ends up dissing the UN helping out Rwanda. He cleaqrly is running interference for the Holocaust denying President of Iran.
This guy George Salzman is actually just as bad. He had a funky thread going at Narco News dissing Ackerman and his funding of Giordano's school. But he also was referring to Israel as Nazis. Total strawman territory. The link to that thread got changed. It seems to have gotten changed because I posted about it at Gowans' place. I'm not joking. I smell controlled opposition, though it's tough to prove.
The title of Salzman's thread and its url got changed. This is in the last couple days. Coincidence? I don't think so.
I'll write this up in a new diary when I get the chance. I know this probably doesn't make the most sense to you right now, without giving you the links and a bit more clarity on what I'm on about. But I'm not making this up. Salzman's critique at Narco News got its url changed after I posted about it at Gowans.
One other thing I'm trying to figure out. I'd like to know who this sweejak is in real life. I'm finding his internet activity a bit too much. The title of Salzman's entry mentioned I think the guy's name is Ansel Herz. That's the guy I mentioned at your blog. He used one of Sweejak's photos. Have you ever heard of geodata? My theory is that Sweejak is paid disinfo. I definitely feel that way about Al. I definitely believe there is paid disinfo on the net, a lot of it. Pardon my indulgence.
TLNL, we just posted at the same time. I hope you don't miss my previous post. I don't care about those two. They are trolls. You put them in their place with proof. Thanks.
Hey guys, if you're done, feel free to leave. It's not as if anyone with any common sense cares anymore what you think. Cya wouldn't want to be ya.
Oops, guess we didn't post at the same time. Thanks again TLNL. Anyone who follows academic rules can see what is going on here. The reader decides, not fascism.
The intent of laws against holocaust denial are 2 fold
1) as measures against legitimisation of Nazism - they are ANTI-NAZI measures taken by democracies in light of a dreadful and recent past.
2) as measures to protect the rights of minorities - against racism, etc.
Laws against holocaust denial are not universal. And even in the countries which do have them - they are subject to the wider mandate of democracy and are never pursued in every case. Relatively very few cases are brought.
Discussion of the holocaust is not illegal - there are thousands of books on the topic - they do not all say the exact same thing.
However, holocaust denial in some places is outlawed - because it stands in contradiction of known FACTS, and is part of a campaign to legitimise NAZISM. People have a legitimate right to curtail Nazism, just as they have a right to curtail psycho-killers.
FWIW - Lipstadt is against jailing holocaust deniers, iirc.
Those nested comments are a drag.... I guess we eventually were on at the same time.... These guys obviously are set in their ways. Dees does so to make a profit. Larry who knows. This is what is referred to as white trash.
By the way. Most of the deletions made were double posts by those idiots. Sometimes, if I make a post and I see typos, I rewrite it and delete the other one completely. I play fair. Larry's the only one I deleted on this thread and I believe I did so three times total, maybe four, and for reasons already stated. So that's why there are like 20+ posts missing according to blogspot.
Show me how I am racist, and you are not.
You made the explicit claim that I was racist.
Make your case, or withdraw it.
Racist writes...
Show me how I am racist, and you are not.
You made the explicit claim that I was racist.
Make your case, or withdraw it.
Withdraw it? It should be underlined in capital letters! Your ignorance about the group you support and adore is as enormous as your selfish ego.
Israel was violently created right over the top of the nation of Palestine. Britain and America simply got together announced to the world that this area was now called Israel in the late forties, and began to systematically massacre, terrorize, torture, kill and maim village after village, pushing the palestinians that remained farther and farther into smaller and smaller pockets of land. Of course you know about this, and you continue to support this illegal racism towards arabs, you are disgusting as a racist could possibly get. You write on a blog supporting lies of Auschwitz, with no auschwitz there would have been no Israel. And now the Israel lobby controls American politics, how funny and what a coincidence that after 9/11 America is attacking all of Israel's enemies, Afghanistan, which they destroyed back to the stone age, then Iraq, endless bombs going off in public streets, all with the fingerprints of Mossad all over them, then Lebanon, and now Israel is lying about Nuclear weapons in Iran, that very same lie that got them into Iraq. Millions of Iraqis have been killed, all with the approving nod of Israel. This is your world, your philosophy of life, racist pig you are, destruction of arabs, you could care less, you grin with glee.
Me? I expose 9/11 and find once again mossad agents all over it, zionist carried out the operation, funny that 9 of the so called highjackers are alive and well complaining about being on the list, yet no one takes them off the list, the TV news still promotes that. You can't see the connection between the holocaust and 9/11 because you and your butt buddy there are so tied into the racist views of zionism you buy ever webpage they support and create to brainwash you. I have never said a single racist thing in my life, all the art is aimed at exposing zionist who hide behind judaism, most of who are not religious or spiritual believers in the least, they all believe in world domination and suppressing undesirable races, just like you asswipe, total racist zionist scum you are.
Now people know the truth, admit it to yourself, you will feel better, you are racist scum, and your accusations towards me are simply to cover up the fact you are in bed with zionists and all their blood, guts, and destruction against unwanted peoples.
Funny, did you know that 90 per cent of jews are Askenazi, they originated in Germany, then migrated east into Russia and Ukraine, they only picked up the judaism about a thousand years ago, yet these are the same people claiming Palestine? It is all to sick to believe,and you sit there running your mouth supporting such crimes? Of course, you are a racist! This is what racist do! Ass.
David Dees' propaganda pamphlet here:
contains a fabricated quote.
...Internet hate sites, as well as Fisk, attribute the derogation of Palestinians as “two-legged beasts” to former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin. The source generally given is:
Menachem Begin, as quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts, "New Statesman, June 25, 1982
Indeed, the radical French-Israeli journalist, Amnon Kapeliouk, did attribute such a quote to Begin in his New Statesman article criticizing Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The author posited:
For this reason the government has gone to extraordinary lengths to dehumanize the Palestinians. Begin described them in a speech in the Knesset as "beasts walking on two legs
However, further investigation by CAMERA reveals that the actual speech upon which Kapeliouk based his quote, as well as news reports at the time demonstrate that the journalist distorted the quote, giving it a completely different tone and meaning. Begin was referring not to "the Palestinians" in a general sense but very specifically, he was referring to terrorists who target children within Israel...Kapeliouk neither recanted nor apologized for his deception...
I hope that helps.
Moreover, we will be conferring with others in Israel and abroad to attempt to verify that the no one has ever heard or seen this quote and whether it is authentic. At present, we understand that there is no reliable source and until proven otherwise, which we doubt can be done based on our archival mateiral and personal familiarity with Mr. Begin, we reject the veracity of the words supposedly either spoken or conveyed. The quotation is bogus.
http://begincenterdiary.blogspot.com/2009/05/correcting-misquotation-reputedly-by.html
Kinda easy to produce hate-propaganda like Dees does - when one fabricates quotes.
Dees will claim his hatred is based on solid foundation - but if so, why the need for fabricated quotes?
Basing hatred upon fabricated quotes means one is using lies to generate and JUSTIFY hatred.
The same is true of Dees' Holocaust denial, of course. He not only seeks to exonerate Nazism of its crimes, it seeks to turn the hatred towards jews, for supposedly being responsible for deception. I mean - how awful - they made up the holocaust eh?
The fact of the matter - as we have seen - is that it is Dees using lies, fabrications and distortions - all the things he accuses jews - ooops "zionists" - of doing.
And, of course, it was (and still is) actually the Nazis doing all the things Dees claims to stand against.....yet Dees attempts to exonerate Hitler and the Nazis and inverts the truth to blame jews.....errr "zionists".
the Dees picture i was on about is here:
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/flaggg_dees.jpg
oh - and to reiterate an earlier point about that last Dees propaganda pamphlet......
It shows the Israeli flag.....with the Star of David.
The text alongside says the Star of David says it is
"indisputably the symbol of Judaism"
GOT THAT? JUDAISM - not Zionism.
From the blog entry:
UPDATE: The subject of this blog entry [Larry Simons] has shown up to prove that he is not a holocaust denier. I stand corrected. Tucked away in his blog are two small examples of his belief that the Holocaust did indeed occur.
I disagree. Larry has not proven he is no holocaust denier - all he has done is proven that he once claimed he was not a holocaust denier.
All other evidence points to the fact he isa holocaust denier: Larry does not believe in any of the evidence which substantiates the Holocaust.
How can one fail to be a Holocaust denier when one disbelieves the substance and detail of the very facts which comprise the Holocaust?
If Larry doesn't believe the evidence for the Holocaust, yet believes the specious arguments and lies of Holocaust deniers, then how can he be considered as someone who does not deny the holocaust?
He can say he isn't a holocaust denier - and he can even believe it himself. But so what? Larry is a Holocaust denier. He just refuses to admit it. It's dishonesty - which might include self-delusion.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8359.5%3Bwap2
I found that Begin quote mentioned at SOTT/cassiopaea
No surprise - but at least Laura (K?) is saying "this quote shouldn't be included in SOTT 'quote of the day' lists"
As silly as SOTT is, at least even they can tell an obviously bogus quote when they see it. lol
S: What I'd like to know is what this type of person will do, once he realises that he's supporting holocaust denial.
hehe - he refuses to (publicly) realise he is supporting holocaust denial.
Now what? hehe
Will he be man enough to get rid of the links? He doesn't link to Carto. No problem there. He may have used to.
He certainly did link to Carto's AFP. He eventually removed the link. Good. But....he never explained why he removed that link and he hasn;t removed any others.
The thing is, once he concedes our point, he will need to remove everything! Hence his resistance, imo. ;)
I don't believe it would be too easy to get him to see the anti-semitic nature of Rense, Rivero, and Jones.
Impossible, it seems. Or rather, it's obviously so difficult and loathsome a task that
I couldn't be bothered to try
haha
I've enjoyed this thread, and more, it's a really very good thread. Very, very good. It's PERFECT.
Doubtless few people care, i guess......but this thread has turned into a perfect demonstration of so many things - things that we've been on about for a long while now.
Who need reference anything else about Dees other than what is on this thread? The cat is out of the bag - it's standing RIGHT HERE - for everyone to see.
:)
Splendid. Result. Thanks all - lol.
Dees believes in the central motivating myth of Nazism - a racist myth - jewish world conspiracy.
So Mr Dees - please be clear?
-----Is Nazism racist?
-----Is Nazism anti-semitic?
-----Is the central motivating myth of Nazism anti-semitic?
Not jewish world, zionism. There are many jews that are against zionism, there are many christians who are zionists. Zionism is a political movement. Make that clear, and stop with the tagging me of being prejudice towards any race or religion.
I entered all this by illustrating political corruption, secret societies, and the new world order. I have no particular interest in world history before all this only a few years ago. 9/11 woke me up, once I saw that we had a corrupt government in America with the whole mainstream media, TV, radio and newspapers in collusion with that agenda I started digging. The art simply exposes corruption as I view it. I like people, all people, I am a good guy, and I got no flack really while doing pieces on 9/11, oklahoma city and London bombings, all the crime families of england and america, not until I studied false flag terrorism and noticed that that so many events in history are frauds, Kennedy assassination, 9/11, Waco, Oklahoma city bombing, London bombing, on and on, all false flags, all designed to be used to change policies, instill fear, and take brutal control over others. I fight these things, I am standing up to the sickos abusing people, I expose them with my platform I have carved out here. I don't get paid to do it, Rense does not pay me, never has, I get lucky if someone wants to use the art for a book cover, that is how I get paid. To my knowledge no one at Stormfront has ever given me a dime, if they have through paypal they simply donated money and never mentioned why.
And the whole Nazi thing I know nothing about, I am studying and exposing forensic evidence that I find to be true, that is all. And only in the case of the gas chambers, because they are still there and can be studied, in fact, the whole crime scene in one small area, the killings and the handlings of the bodies are in one small location. Not so for shootings, they can be everywhere and unnoticed, undocumented slayings, few photos. I have already said that jews were shot, abused, tortured, and had a rough time, but also, there were zionist jewish nazi's with their own agenda, who would certainly kill their brothers to further their own goals.
Forensic testing of the gas chambers proves that there are trace deposits of Zyklon B, no higher than the other buildings
Wrong again! How many times now?
The chambers showed evidence of zyklon B - Leuchter claimed it wasn't high enough, and said it must have been caused by defumigation efforts. However the living quarters, which were also defumigated showed NO EVIDENCE of zyklon B. Therefore, much more zyklon B must have been used at the chambers......particularly because the chambers were completely wrecked by Nazis trying to coverup their acts. Weathering severely depletes evidence of cyanide/zyklonb (yet it was STILL found at the chambers.)
Meanwhile the delousing chamber, the real gas chamber has blue stains and enormous amounts of poison deposited on the walls.
The delousing chamber had the highest levels as it was not completely destroyed (and hence exposed to weathering like the chambers) and it was used for far longer periods at likely far-higher dose levels (insects are much harder to kill than humans)
And on the wider points, you seem to be quite confused: Nazism was racist, and anti-semitic. It's main motivating myth - which you also subscribe to - is essentially anti-semitic and racist.
Yet, whilst you're defending Nazis from their crimes, you turn around and accuse their victims, and others, of being "racist"!
I think you are barking up quite the wrong tree, and I think you're very confused about what fascism means, and what forms anti-semitism can take.
I have no idea quite what you and others think holocaust denial has to do with delegitimising Israel. I think yours is a completely misplaced and despicable tactic ...... criticisng Israel does not require Holocaust denial or anti-semitism of any form - it never has, never will.
As for your "ground penetrating radar" presumably you are on about Richard Krege?
Krege might claim such a thing 0 but he hasn't published his findings, nor has he accepted various challenges from scientists to stand up his claims.
So what exactly are you basing your claims upon, Mr Dees?
It is much easier to tell a lie than to expose one. Perhaps, that is one of the unspoken reasons that motivates people to advocate censoring hate-speech. Whereas I am opposed to censorship and hate speech laws, I am not embarrassed to call Holocaust-denial hate speech. That is what it is. People who are smart enough to obfuscate using pseudoscientific arguments are also smart enough to know what they are doing: propagating a lie. Although some people may be attracted to Holocaust denial because of gullibility and/or mental illness, these people are not the same people who write these clever but mendacious pseudoscientific reports. The people who write these reports are motivated by a desire to rehabilitate Nazism, an ideology of hate. Hate-speech is what it is, and in calling it that I am merely exercising my right of free speech.
The arguments made by the deniers are, of course, repulsive, but they can only have an effect if the public is not educated enough to see the poor scholarship disguised with footnotes. It is because of this restriction on the possibility of the deniers to have an effect that I believe that accurate information is the best possible response.
Deborah Lipstadt
Plus, I am still waiting for some evidence that I am a racist bigot.
Where is it, Mr Dees?
(Ok- first a few off-topic, stupid comments. I might have set the comments to be nested. That's better than the software garbling the words. Also, the post count only shows the greater amount if one is signed into blogger. Hopefully that clears those things up for the lurkers. I'll now run through the new posts and give my responses.)
I don't see how David Dees can call us zionists or racists. I think we can assume this is the real Dave, since Larry did email him, and he sounds just like him.
Where have either myself or TLNL discussed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I already said I lean pro-Palestinian in general. I also believe Israel has a right to exist. Is America going back to the Native-Americans, Kuwait to Iraq, Northern Ireland to Ireland, etc.? No. That doesn't make me an imperial zionist. I would like to see a safe and secure Israel and ditto an independent Palestine living side by side in peace.
The only justification Dees has for calling myself and TLNL zionist scum is because we believe that the Holocaust took place.
Dees is conflating his Holocaust denial with Middle Eastern politics, period. With the first name of David, he could very well be the proverbial self-hating Jew. He should seek counseling.
That he feigns ignorance of Stormfront while supporting Holocaust denial basically tells us that this guy is useless for conversation. That is not an ad hominem or strawman argument. This guy is clearly on the wrong side of history and making money off of Holocust denial and other conspiracy theory freak ideas.
Dees is a waste of time. Since TLNL has thoroughly been able to counter everything he's written and continues to do so, I will step off having any interaction with him. I will point out, however, that there is a big difference between my take on "chemtrails" and his. Anyone can check out the forum linked to in my blogger profile and see that I have provided just about the only decent theory for why such a program appears in place. Dees has one poster in which he makes it seem chemtrails are for mind control. That's foolish.
People can say they are ordinary contrails, but they can't place me in the same circle as disinfo writers and promoters such as Jeff Rense, Alex Jones, and Will Thomas. In fact, I originally got my arse cybersmeared precisely because I cleaned out the disinfo from the side of the argument saying chemtrails aren't contrails. Then the shite hit the fan when I went after Rivero and right woos left. TLNL and myself met over the Rivero topic. Some goofy script was put in place saying we are the same person. But that is water under the bridge and explained at my forum. I just wanted to get that off my chest. In my next post or two, I'll address TLNL's comments concerning my own.
Hi TLNL. You really did a brilliant job on this thread. As you did a few months ago on the thread Al Giordano showed up on. I thank you for this. I truly appreciate your efforts.
I agree Larry has gone from being in general agreement with the 6 million number to questioning it. I could do another update, but I figure people can read through the comments and see how that evolved. I don't think he's paid to post. I think his identity is wrapped up as a so-called Patriot. To confront the truth about all these websites he uses for sources would signify an ability to admit he's been wrong on many things. He'd be forced to run through every link he promotes and tediously check if any are worthy of remaining. He has devoted too much psychological energy to believing certain things. Even though he has been very nasty, I do wish him well in getting his act together. He seems to be in a lot of pain.
This has been a very productive thread. I agree. It'll probably reach more people than you suggest. Google takes care of blogger. Google is #1 and blogger is #7 in the internet rankings. The beauty of this thread is that you were able to pin Dees down. He has said that the Holocaust is a hoax. He has said only 108,000 Jews were killed by Hitler. The cat thing was kind of like gravy.
The best part of it is perhaps that newbies will be able to go wow, look at how connected all these various names are that keep popping up into the zeitgeist- Rense, Jones, Rivero, and then maybe they'll check out our other finds. If one combines our stuff, we have certainly covered a lot of ground. Then there are dudes like that guy Ernie. There are others too. I'm not trying to put ourselves on a pedestal. But I agree that this thread has been successful. In fact, both of us have done a lot over the last couple years to expose right woos left.
I'm finding it awfully convenient that Dees admits to little knowledge of Nazi Germany or Stormfront. That's very convenient, considering that those who donate to him and buy his eyesores, I guess, are mostly neo-nazis. I don't think Larry is a neo-nazi. But I think much of Dees' supporters are. Ok, I'm done. Good job, TLNL.
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