This blog is dedicated to the memory of David Weintraub, who took on insidious astroturfers and won.

Thursday, May 6, 2010

Canadian Bob in the Spotlight

Molson screenshot

The following was written by Blogger Bob. The Molson is offered to him in good faith. I've only added links, images, and some very light editing to go along with his fine prose. For convenience folks are encouraged to right click for new windows. The stuff we've been on about isn't an enigma. The learning curve isn't that steep. DFQ2 is in jeopardy. Bob is having cold feet concerning being added to the blog roll. Donkeytale has threatened to go Greta Garbo on us. Speaking of which, here's some eye candy, before we get to the show.

Classic Beauty Engraved

Blogger Bob on the Satanic Panic

Could SRA have been a hysterical response in part to the unspeakable, the Priest as pedophilic sexual predator...?

Yes - I'm convinced that this has been an important factor in the development & propagation of Satanic Panic. You've hit a nail on the head squarely, here.

It is easy to picture Traditionalist Catholics in particular experiencing a mental meltdown when first confronted by undeniable evidence of pervasive child abuse/sexual abuse by Catholic clergy and lay order members. Their theological conceptions of reality, of "how the universe is ordered", wouldn't be able to accomodate that a sci-fi robot repeating "does not compute!" over & over until their head explodes.

For such persons, there would have to be some "other power" at work behind these clergy abuse cases - and that "other power" would naturally be Satan hisself. But not Satan as a metaphor for human fallibility, rather Satan as a literal being of pure evil directing legions of satanic cult minions ala "The Exorcist".

Catholic clergy could not possibly be the worst child abusers in society, Traditionalists would likely rationalize. If Priests were guilty of abusing dozens of children, then there must be satanic cults abusing thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of children. If Priests were guilty of physically abusing children, then there must be satanic cults torturing, mutilating, murdering & eating children. There MUST be "a greater evil" out there, even if it had to be invented out of elements from the Inquisition, mythology and popular horror fiction.

Lawrence Pazder, the Canadian psychiatrist who authored "Michelle Remembers", was a devout conservative Catholic.

John DeCamp is conservative Catholic, as was Kathleen Sorenson - the Nebraska foster parent whose suggestive "questioning" of children in her care ultimately developed into the Franklin case. You can find one of Sorenson's credulous rants on the pages of Fatima Crusader:
(Bob's link)

I have some knowledge & insights about this topic because I happened to be involved in a cluster of intellectual pursuits and social networks that were impacted by the Satanic Panic as it went down in the 80's & 90's.

I was a student in the early 80's, studying Child Development, and I was a volunteer with the local Rape Crisis Centre (later called Sexual Assault Centres). That made me aware of the very real tragedy of sexual violence in our society, particularly as perpetrated against women and children of either gender.

I was also studying Comparative Religion (really, the history and practices of all the major faiths), and as a hobby I studied and researched tiny & obscure religious/spiritual/metaphysical movements & groups that have arisen (and largely, died out) over the last 500 years. This gave me insights into the realities - contrasted to hysterical fantasies - about "occult" teachings & practices, "satanism", "witchcraft", "neopaganism" & "wicca", as well as obscure offshoots from Catholicism, Mormonism and evangelical fundamentalism.

My community had problems with organized bigotry in the 80's, including serious criminal activity by neo-nazi skinhead gangs affiliated with Aryan Nations Church. I was involved in organizing protests and an anti-racist community response to these bigots, as well as anti-defamation activism on behalf of smaller subcultures such as Women's Spirituality groups. These networkings gave me access to reports of threats, vandalism & violence against a wide range of social minorities - reports that mainstream media often declined to cover.

I was a big fan of Zine culture (remember "Factsheet Five"?). Before the internet, Zines were "the everyman's media" and throughout the 80's I ordered and collected reams of self-published and small press materials including evangelical tracts from a variety of faith communities. This gave me insight into what these evangelicals were telling their followers about other groups in our society and what they were saying to each other within their own communities that they might not be saying in their public radio/tv broadcasts.

There are a couple of good academic books that recount & analyze what happened and theories/reasons why it happened, during this Satanic Panic. My perspective is not an academic analysis - it is simply an account of what I personally perceived, experienced and learned.

First there were the evangelical testimonialists - con-artists who made their living as speakers or author/speakers travelling the evangelical/charismatic/fundamentalist church circuit - giving a false "testimony" of their supposed involvement in "the occult", "satanism", "witchcraft" and/or "the illuminati", and 'warning' their audiences that secretive "reverse-christianity" satanic cults were real, powerful and active in their communities. Some began their crusades in the 70's. ALL of these people were liars & frauds. Two of the most influential were Mike Warnke and John Todd.

There were other anti-occult authors & speakers in the evangelical circuit, but these fraudulent testimonialists were important because their claims to having "come out from" supposed satanic groups made them "whistleblowers" - termed "renegades" in Hofstadter's brilliant "The Paranoid Style In American Politics". Hofstadter said: "In some part, the special authority accorded the renegade derives from the obsession with secrecy so characteristics of such movements: the renegade is the man or woman who has been in the Arcanum, and brings forth with him or her the final verification of suspicions which might otherwise have been doubted by a skeptical world".

From my own studies & research I was aware that organized "reverse-christianity" satanism has never existed in the real world. This is the "satanism" most frequently described by supposed SRA survivors. Reverse-christianity satanists supposedly believe that they serve satan by being and doing "evil". They are supposedly obsessed with "defiling" anything or anyone that a Christian would perceive to be holy, righteous or "pure" - especially symbols of the Christian faith, children and infants. (A reverse-christianity satanist would supposedly, for example, derive particular delight from raping an infant with a crucifix). All of their rites & rituals would supposedly somehow mock or "reverse" those of Christian (specifically Catholic/High Anglican) traditions. Reverse-christianity satanists supposedly perceive and measure their own actions with the same moral compass as a righteous Christian would. They would engage in "perverted" sexual acts - judging those acts with Jerry Falwell's moral yardstick and thus perceiving them to be "perverted", simply BECAUSE they are "perverted" acts and satan would supposedly be pleased by this contempt for and rebellion against "godliness".

Jimmy Swaggart- I have sinned.

Reverse-christianity satanism has only ever manifested in occasional deranged individuals or tiny, short-lived groups of mutually-supporting sociopaths. There has never been a long-term, large-scale or complex organization of reverse-christianity satanists. It would be impossible for such an organization to remain functional over even small periods of time, as many critically important organizational processes would be inherently sabotaged by the member's adherence to their own professed belief system.

No real-life religious/spiritual movement or organization accused or suspected of harboring "reverse-christianity" beliefs, motivations or practices, is actually "guilty" of doing so. The Process did not, LeVay and the Church of Satan do not, Aquino and the Temple of Set do not, Crowleyan Thelemites do not (and Aliester Crowley most definitely DID NOT), Wiccans do not, Gerald Gardner did not, etc, etc, etc.

Protestant Fundamentalists have a history of not trusting in or accepting the legitimacy of secular governments and public institutions, exemplified by the Plymouth Brethren Deacon who habitually exercised his democratic franchise by spoiling his ballot, writing "I VOTE FOR KING JESUS" across it. In America, stung by humiliating losses in public clashes with forces of modernism in the early 1900s, many swore off involving themselves in "the public sphere" entirely.

But by the 70's, especially encouraged by an Evangelical in the White House, there were movements encouraging fundamentalists to re-engage in all areas of public life - such as Falwell's Moral Majority. I saw this myself, in the form of a wave of aggressively evangelical young people in my child welfare related classes. There have always been evangelicals in child welfare, what was new about these classmates was their determination to work within and have an impact on purely secular (rather than specifically religious) child welfare institutions and agencies.

Jerry Falwell in political bed with Ronald Reagan

These young people were, coincidentally, part of the generation of evangelical youths targeted by and exposed to fraudulent Satanic hysteria spreaders like Mike Warnke. I first heard of him through one of these people, and learned that he and other "let's all fear the alleged satanic cults in our backyards" speakers drew great crowds at the massive new Pentacostal cathedral several times a year. This was probably happening in your community too, in the early 80's, anywhere around North America.

At the same time, there was explosive growth in some alternative spirituality movements - Women's Spirituality groups, neopaganism, wicca, traditional native-pagan revivalists, some New Age groups. Before long, my evangelical classmates began to tell me about new speakers at their church who were "a former wicca high priest" or "a former member of Transendental Meditation high council", and wouldn't you know it...these new testimonialists were claiming that Wicca and TM were really satanic cults also involved in drug trafficking, kidnappings, murders, etc.. I was beginning to understand the formula - anytime a movement not approved of by fundamentalists gains popularity & press, a fraudulent ex-member of the movement pops up to warn Christians the movement is really a satanic cult plot.

There was also a big push going for a national daycare plan, with new (secular), publicly funded daycare centres to open in communities across the country. Fundamentalist commentators were furious about this, calling the plan a plot to destroy "the family". I wondered, prophetically as it turned out, in 1983, when I would hear about an ex-satanic cult daycare operator doing the evangelical circuit.

The anti-cult movement and "cult awareness" groups that developed in the 70's seemed to spiral into overdrive after the terrible tragedy of Jonestown. The focus seemed to shift from "deprogramming" adult children involved in known groups to searching out unknown groups that might be likely candidates to be the next tragedy, "before it happens again". Some began hunting for the alleged satanic cults they had heard about from Warnke or John Todd, or later on from Bill Schnoebelen, Tom Sanguinet, Doc Marquis and others. Betraying their total ignorance of the subject, some apparently believed the word "occult" was related to the word "cult" and used them interchangeably; "the kids are involved in an occult". These were the proto satan-hunters.

Have a nice, cold glass of Kool-aid.

Meanwhile, young heavy metal and punk fans were driving some civic officials and uninformed cops into paranoid fits by spray-painting band related "satanic" graffiti all over their towns. Young heavy metal fans, in juvenile detention centres, psychiatric facilities, foster homes and other child welfare facilities were similarly driving their caregivers into paranoia with tales of the "satanism" that they & their friends were practising and which the adults around them were too uninformed to understand was almost entirely their own inventions. It is understandable that some persons who grew up with the fraudulent tales of satanic cults that never existed, from the likes of Warnke, would conclude that these teen "satanists" in their communities must be involved in the same (imaginary) satanic conspiracies, and start searching for likely ringleaders (who never existed).

I believe it was such self-appointed Satan Hunters who were responsible for the death threats against New Age booksellers, the vandalism of venues where Women's Spirituality and neopagan groups held their meetings, the anonymous "tips" to public pagan's employers that they were really "a babykilling satanist", that were reported through the anti-defamation networks I was involved with - rare, yet troubling reports in the early 80's escalating to alarming frequency by the decade's end. There was some kind of, likely spontaneous, witchhunting going on - which meant that there was probably a social panic underway in some segments of the population.

And then the sleazy tabloidesque tv "exposes" on "satanic crime" began, along with mass arrests of alleged child abuse cultists in several communities, with preposterous "reverse-christianity" satanic cult allegations, and the existence of a full-fledged social panic was confirmed.

Anything for a buck?

While still in college I opened a small "world religions" bookstore that catered to academics with interests similar to mine and practitioners of smaller faith groups. In the later 80's, I was approached by members of the local law enforcement "intelligence gathering" unit through the store. Like many, many other communities across North America, our police and child protection agencies were getting reports of alleged criminal activities involving "occult" or "satanic" groups. These police officers were essentially clueless about such topics (like 99% of the population) and were looking for:

1)genuine source documents i.e., how occult practitioners themselves described their beliefs & practices - materials which I carried.
2)someone to translate such documents into terminology/concepts they were more familiar with, and to interpret "occult"/spiritual/religious paraphenalia or symbolism found at alleged crime scenes
3)a contact who could extend invitations to practitioners of obscure religious/spiritual groups, who might be interested in meeting with law enforcement for the purpose of explaining or demonstrating their own beliefs and practices.

In return, these police officers provided me with "occult crime" "training manuals" and other "resource materials" that were being used as the basis of "satanic/occult crime" information & training seminars for law enforcement agencies, child protection agencies and other justice system or social welfare practitioners across North America at that time.

Kee MacFarlane- McMartin Preschool Satan Hunter

I was horrified by these "occult crime investigator" manuals. The idea that they were being used to train persons with real power over other people's lives was terrifying. Because, they were filled with little more than IGNORANCE, FANTASIES and SUPERSTITION.

In some cases, they referenced fraudulent con-artists like Mike Warnke as "experts" with "first-hand knowledge of criminal satanic cults today". Warnke was incapable of giving "first-hand, expert knowledge" about satanic cults because HE WAS NEVER A MEMBER OF ONE. He was only an expert on his own fantasies of what satanic cults "must" be like.

Many of these manuals revealed their author's ignorance of the subjects they were supposedly experts on, through chapters on "occult signs & symbols you might encounter at a crime scene", wherein the interpretations given to the symbols they showed were NOT their traditional meanings and were totally unrelated to the Kabbalistic systems from which the symbols were originally derived. This turned out to be not surprising, when I later learned that many of these interpretations were given to the authors by the self-styled teen satanists they had interviewed. They were some kid's personal interpretation concocted from their own imagination, not derived from scholarly sources.

Most of these manuals showed a total ignorance of the fact that historic occult rituals were derived from judeo-christian mystical traditions. They were created by god-fearing Jews and Christians, who believed they would assist them to DO GOD'S WILL by vanquishing supernatural evils in HIS name. In fact, the power that most of them call upon is the Judeo-Christian God, using mystical titles for Him. They have nothing whatsoever to do with worshipping Satan or "doing evil".

One of these "resource materials", created by a fundamentalist police officer, warned that only Christian investigators should possess books on satanism/occult themes or keep such materials in their homes, because true Christians would be protected from the demonic possession such materials could supposedly cause, but others would not be!

This reflects very revealing attitudes and assumptions underlying the involvement of evangelical testimonialists and Ministries in secular law enforcement & child welfare investigations into satanic crime allegations. From the viewpoint of some evangelical ministries, they have been more engaged in "battling the devil" in our society than the rest of us, which ought to defacto make them the only real experts on Satan & satanists (when, objectively, they only possess expertise in their own fantasies about satanists that don't actually exist). There is an ironic truth here, however. Many satanic crime allegations were derived directly from the falsehoods told by fraudulent evangelical testimonialists, and they naturally possess the greatest "expertise" on their own fantasies. People like Warnke probably expected that they could get away with their false testimony, forever. Most of the population has been completely uninterested in subjects like satanism and the occult and are therefore totally uninformed on those topics, unable to confront false statements that con-artists might make on those subjects. And since the satanic cults these frauds claim to be ex-members of don't actually exist, since "reverse-christianity" satanism doesn't actually exist, no one can prove that what they have to say about it is false.

How did satanic cult fantasies become insinuated into the statements of children making allegations of sexual abuse? They came from the Satan Hunters lurking in child welfare agencies and institutions, in church ministries and foster homes, members of religious communities that have never trusted secular governments or institutions even if they work for them, informal groupings of "concerned parents & community members" who KNOW the satanic cults are out there and are determined to turn them out through their own "investigations". Read Bruce Perry's "Satanic Panic" essay for a sickening account of how this was done in Gilmer, Texas, and you will understand how similar processes played out in other communities.

I am very much aware of the Dominionists - unfortunately. What a horrifying concept; turning North America into a Christian fundamentalist theocracy?

There is a symbiotic relationship between the Patriot/Christian Militia new world order-illuminati paranoids and the ritual abuse-mind control survivor/therapist cultists. (there are actually many direct connections between the two communities, demonstrated by the relationships between Gunderson, John DeCamp, Bo Gritz, Ken Adachi, Tim White, Brice Taylor, Ellen Lacter, Kathleen Sullivan, Paul Bonnaci,etc.)

The ritual abuse/mind control survivors derive their imaginary life histories from the mythologies of the NWO-Illuminati conspiracy theories of the Militias.

The ritual abuse/mind control survivors then function as "whistleblowers" - Hofstadter's "renegades" - for the NWO-Illuminati paranoid politics of the Militias. They function as "the living evidence", "proof", that the NWO-Illuminati conspiracy is reality and therefore that western society is hopelessly corrupted by secret societies composed of morally deranged satanic pedophile billionaires.

If that were really true, you see, it would mean that the only hope of escaping enslavement by invisible tyrannies would come from "morally righteous" people who understand "the truth" seizing control of our governments and public institutions. Or, the population could voluntarily turn over control to...the Dominionists! - with the Patriot Militias functioning as Inquisitor/religious police, rounding up all the secretly morally corrupt elements of our societies. Oh yea.

Anyone who thinks that the Patriots have been plastering the internet with ritual abuse-mind control survivor stories because they are "concerned about child abuse" is completely deluded! They do that as a propaganda & recruitment program. They hope these "survivor" stories will convince the naive average person that our institutions are hopelessly corrupted, and terrify them into joining (or at least becoming supportive of) local groups of heavily armed paranoids "for their own protection". And guess what? IT WORKS. It even works on some Progressives, apparently.

Some people who publicly trumpet being concerned about child abuse are actually exploiting that tragic issue to advance another agenda. This happens on both the Right and the Left, and it makes me furious.

For example, an alleged Progressive named Sander Hicks has been promoting his friend Nick Bryant's book "The Franklin Scandal". Bryant claims that the book is an expose of child trafficking, of rich and powerful men sexually exploiting vulnerable teens and then using their power and influence to corrupt the justice system into covering-up what they'd done.

Hicks claims to be promoting Bryant's book out of concern for abused children. I know that cannot be his real motivation, however, because Hicks has gone out of his way to promote "the cause" of not one but two CONVICTED PEDOPHILES and cast them as heroic whistleblowers!

I'm talking about Delmart Vreeland and Richard Taus. You can get their stories by googling them if you want.

The hypocrisy of someone who claims to be concerned about abused children casting pedophiles as heroes is just UNBELIEVABLE! Why would Hicks do this? Because both these persons claim to be government/intelligence agency whistleblowers exposing secret criminal conspiracies involving political leaders and intelligence agencies.

THAT is Sander Hicks real agenda - to find & promote some kind of dirt that could "discredit" our governments and public institutions in the eyes of the public. Hicks agenda, is to "discredit" governments and public institutions. That is what most of his writing and activism has been concerned with. NOT child welfare.

And that is why Sander Hicks is promoting Nick Bryant's book. NOT because Hicks is concerned about abused children - he wouldn't promote the cause of convicted pedophiles if he really was concerned about child abuse - but because The Franklin Case involves wealthy powerful men, law enforcement and government agencies being accused of corruption and pedophilic activity. Hicks promotes Bryant's book because it represents "dirt" that could "discredit" political leaders and public institutions.

If he was open & honest about his real motivation, I'd say - great, go for it! Exposing verifiable criminal misdeeds by politicians and government agencies is undeniably a good thing for society. But don't claim to be an advocate for abused children when you've promoted pedophiles as heroes.

I've talked about the satanic cult survivor mythology, but not the mind-control experiment survivor mythology. After the FBI's Ken Lanning revealed that the FBI could find no evidence of multigenerational child-abusing satanic cults, SRA as a cause of multiple personality disorder was discredited.

Colin Ross was making a killing promoting and treating MPD and weren't going to give up their golden goose, so he and his staff (such as Corydon Hammond) attempted to come to the rescue with a new "root cause" for MPD - CIA mind-control experimentation.

There's a grain of truth in that idea. The CIA really did finance mind-control experimentation in a variety of forms. They really did experiment with the possibility of creating agents who would have a second "personality" with no knowledge of their own status as a CIA operative. If they were captured while the secondary persona was activated, they couldn't betray themselves or the agency, was the idea. These experiments involved hypnosis as the means of generating a secondary persona, they had nothing to do with creating full-blown MPD via torturing little children.

The reality of these CIA funded experiments provided a plausible alternate explanation for the origin of MPD in Ross' patients. The fact that the CIA destroyed most of the records about these programs was extremely convenient, allowing an alleged victim to plausibly claim that there was no documentation of their victimization because the CIA had destroyed all the records.

But, that isn't really true. There ARE CIA funded mind-control experimentation survivors who have extensive documentation of their victimization. There are 77 Canadians who were victims of Ewan Cameron's CIA funded experimentation. Their identities are known, and their victimization so well documented that they were awarded compensation payments.

There is, however, NO evidence that any of these people;
- were raised in multigenerational satanist families with ties to the CIA
- had multiple personalities intentionally induced in them
- were used for prostitution, pornography, sex slavery or drug-running.

The reality of the Canadian mind-control experimentation survivors does not support the fantasies of the Brice Taylors, the Kathleen Sullivans or the Paul Bonnacis of the Extreme Abuse Survivor cult.


bob said...


You did a fantastic job of composing this! Thanks so much.

Only one more thing to say:

You'll notice that I don't talk about recovered memories or false memories. That's because, the false memories debate was never my primary concern in these matters. I never had any contact with the FMSF or any of its members in all of my networking with people concerned about satanic panic.

There really were some cases of therapist assisted false memory, as evidenced by the lawsuits - but that's not what's going on with the crop of media-seeking survivors.

With people like Sue Ford, Cathy O'Brien, Kathleen Sullivan and Paul Bonacci, it's not about "memories" at all - recovered or otherwise. It's about mythologies, fantasies, role-playing and LIES.

So, whatever concerns people might have about the False Memory Syndrome Foundation or any of it's members is another Red Herring. Memory isn't the issue here, the issue is LYING about their life histories and the motivations for their lying.

socrates said...

Thanks Bob. I've done that one other time for someone who authorised it. It's fun to find screenshots and links to plug in.

I'll be honest. I had only skimmed through your original posts. But then Donkeytale mentioned how they were so good, he read through them four times.

It really was good writing. I think you only made one mistake, the type where we throw in the wrong word or two and end up meaning the oppositie of what was intended. Spelling mistakes were rare. I do think you're supposed to include punctuation before the quote symbol, but I obviously left those the way you wrote it.

I see your point about the false memory debate not being all that vital to cover. I also saw your point the other time about not needing to prove or disprove the existence of McMartin tunnels. Though I looked into that, and they appeared to be simple openings for electrical or plumbing work or possibly garbage pits.

On Mk Ultra, I think the main objective of the CIA was to try to develop a truth serum. I'm not sure about the manchurian candidate angle.

Jesse Ventura made a mockery out of it with his conspiracy show. I liked what he did concerning the HAARP operation out of Alaska. But his other attempts seemed to contain mostly schlock.

I'm glad you have been able to back me up on my more esoteric takes on internet convolution. That Brice Taylor (Sue Ford) book cover says it all. I'd love to know exactly what has been going on with the various players. Like what's up with Barbara Hartwell? What's her angle? Is she insane, a grifter, or the proverbial disinfo agent? The same exact question can be asked of a lot of them. Especially that guy Andy Stephenson. Or what about Michael Aquino and Gunderson? I can't get it out of my head that Aquino worked in military psyops, and Gunderson was an FBI bigwig during the Cointelpro era. That's too much coincidence for my liking.

seners said...

Yes, a very nice editing effort Soc. It occurs to me that you could have created an account called "Bob" and posted it without the preamble and you would have done a traditional journalistic piece as editor of his work. I can't say why exactly, but your preambles bother me. The extraneous mentions of me, Garbo and Molson for instance...oh well, its your blog and Bob seems happy with the result.

This is excellent work. I especially enjoyed the links and couldn't help laffing at the many parallels btwn todaze fake left and yesterday's John Birchers, er I mean todaze JBS too.

I'm not qualified to comment about this subject but its an interesting slice of recent history and I like how the infoboobtubez have abetted so much CT in these times.

Its also interesting to note that the 19TH century anti-9atholic tirades about the sexual perversion behind the monastery doors seems to have not been entirely inaccurate.

Even paranoiacs can be right once in a while.

I'm following the Wall Street meltdown because computer programs and math models are at the heart of what happened Thurs.My guess is that this was no accident but rather someone smelling an opportunity to rig the cybergame for fun and immense profit. It will take weeks or months for the SEC to get to the bottom of it but they need to do so.One more black mark against our darkly electronic age.

My condolences to your Celts. It might be coincidence but I have seen or heard a handful of Celtic games this year where they have been blown out at 6 times. I don't think its their year. They look a bit long in the tooth like SA.

I hope the Suns make a run, but it looks to be a Lakers vs. Cavs or Magic final. Cavs v Magic would make for an interesting series. Ditto Lakers/Suns.

socrates said...

Dude, I'm trying to open the place up for others. I'm sorry the Molson schtick turned you off, along with Garbo's stamp and referencing yourself. I guess in some ways, you vant to be weft alone. [/Garbo + Yosemite Sam] I do take such whining into account, if you haven't noticed. p:>

I don't want this blog to be about me or Al Franken. Before I stabbed Cold Spy in the back, I offered him a slot. I even offered that dude who thinks Jeremy Blake and Theresa Duncan faked their deaths an opening. Thankfully they didn't accept.

Bob's a whole different cat, if you get my jive. He'd be perfect. Hung out with chicks and fought against sexual assaults. He's tinfoil free. All he has to do is sign up at my place and get me his email address. Anyone else interested can do the same and private message the info.

I'm also willing to help anyone who needs help with figuring out screenshots and html codes. Those are easier than juggling.

The best part of being on the blogroll is that folks will be able to see any posts coming in on archived threads.

Donkeytale, your value is immeasurable. You are handy in regards to keeping tabs on political and economic current events. I'm almost thinking of checking into the latest stock market scare and writing something up. But I'm feeling awful groggy after last night's whooping by Cleveland. My biggest problem with the Celtics is there's never a plan B when things go wrong. It's Rondo or nothing for running the offense. There's no one to fill in for Paul Pierce if he's inept like last night. Big Baby is too short to be a real factor against Cleveland's front line. Tomorrow's a big game, no doubt. It could be the difference between this series going five or seven games. Sometimes, though, we can put too much importance on one game and not realise that these things can unpredictably sway back and forth. One year the Celtics lost to the Lakers, I think we crushed them by 40 before the tides turned for the worse. Talk about climate change. I doubt there have been many times in NBA history where teams swapped stunning routs in consecutive road games.

No way will I ever root for LeBron. It looks like he played up that elbow thing for two options. If the Cavs lose, it will be an excuse. If the Cavs win, then it will play up his legend. He's a great player, but he gets away with a lot of charges and travels. If the Lakers could win it all against teams that don't historically choke, then fine, I can live with that. I'm just sick of them confusing luck for skill. If KG didn't get injured last year, we're talking possible three-peat. [/woulda, coulda, shoulda] I think it's time for Doc and Danny to start packing their belongings. They are incapable of seeing the big picture. Maybe I will adopt Oklahoma in the coming years.

socrates said...

Oops with my basketball memory. In 1984, the Lakers crushed the Celtics in game 3 137-104. The C's came back to win the series in 7. That was the year there was no air conditioning at the Boston Garden, and temperatures crept towards 100.

blentsul said...

Compare the 84 Lakers and Celtics teams with any NBA teams today and you'll see the problem. Both of those 84 teams benches were as good or better than todaze Lakers and Celtics first teams.

The stock mkt thingie looks very suspicious. However, the mkt is tough to analyze unless you have some technical understanding of how it works. This could be a stretch for the socialist peacenikkk type, unless he does his homework. You and Bob have obviously done your homework on the satanic panic.

I'm thinking of cut n pasting the Hofstader piece and posting it as a tribute to all the resident paranoids at FSZ and PFF. Hit n run play.

Jason said...


Really like the Garbo pics. She was incredible, wasnt she. The other pics are incredible too. Keeps me coming back for more. 84 was quite a year, Bird, McHale, Parish no one could stop them. 86 wasnt bad either. I skip the other stuff, boring to me, but different strokes for different folks. Could you do a whole piece on the Celts?

socrates said...

Donkeytale, I wouldn't say those benches were better than the first teams of today. A few of the players on the bench, yes, but not second unit versus first unit.

The problem is the superstar system. That leads to the refs making calls based on bias. Some things have even led to legitimately wonder about corruption, that it's not all about one guy named Tim Donaghy.

The Celtics and Lakers of the last couple years never would have beaten the older teams because of the bench strength or lack of it today.

That was a good win by the Celtics to force at least 6 games. Rajon Rondo out-LeBroned LeBron James. If Paul Pierce can snap out of his funk, the Cavs are in trouble. I don't know who'll win the series. Each team keeps winning their must have games.

On the stock market. It's strange that the New York Stock Exchange didn't cancel orders but the other one did. You'd think they'd be able to track down who made the killing. I saw one explanation floating around about a typo. That's where it sounds fishy so far.

FSZ and PFFugee are strange websites. MattyJack had a diary up talking about how the old-school trolls were out of business. I don't think it's a stretch to say he means us. MajorFlaw's a regular guy according to him. In his mind, we're the ones who take dumps on blog carpets, that we are political operatives or something stupid like that.

I used to blog somewhat like that crowd. You know, the typical copy and paste of current events and whatnot, as if forums doing so had a purpose. I still do that from time to time but not so often anymore.

I see both of those places calling coppers pigs based on a couple stories. A baseball fan got tased on the field. In another story, some dumbass SWAT team killed a dog in front of kids. At my aircraft wings forum, I wrote up the Don't Tase Me Bro dude in real time, similar to how I wrote up the WikiLeaks story.

What I'd say to folks is the big story is youtube. Those pigs are getting caught on tape assaulting people, and the whole world is getting a good looksie. Just plug in some search words at youtube, and it's remarkable how much of it is going on. But the dumbasses at Pffugee and FSZ act as if they are breaking ground. They're not.

I think you've said it before, that this blog formula stuff is stale. Copy and paste, blah, blahg, bleg.

I like to talk, or type in blogspeak. I like to think. I like people who are civil and rational. I like a good sense of humour or serious stuff without any guffaws. Now there's a good word for ye!

And I totally agree with your philosophy on Meta. You're not saying it's all that and a bag of chips. I think you're saying why should any of us keep doing the same old same old and think we're making a difference or building something. Show me one forum where the majority of people are nice, thoughtful, and interesting. All the soapbloxes are a joke, the one's I know about at least- My Left Wing, Pffugee, and FSZ. Democratic Underground is a joke. Places like BradBlog are dead, because they are not just stupid but boring. The worst is when jackasses like Karmafish and Phil I. Stine (AngryRich of Fox News) start shooting the shit. I guess it serves a purpose, if one is having trouble falling asleep.

socrates said...

Thanks Jason for the kind words and welcome to the blog.

Did you see those cartoons making fun of Garbo? I think she realised she was too good for Hollywood and people in general. She was kind of like the Kurt Cobain of acting. Maynard from TOOL is kind of like that too. He's not into any cult of personality. I think Garbo got out when the going was good. Too bad her last movie was a flop, but it appears all her others were top notch. I think she basically pulled a Hemingway without killing herself. If her family and friends say she was hot shit, I believe it.

I doubt I'll blog on basketball. This has turned into an annual event between myself and donkeytale around the playoffs. I do admit I was wrong about the Magic last year. Though that might have been a fluke with KG out. Cleveland has an image of being a choker until proven otherwise. In a perfect world, I'd say Phoenix would win the title or the winner coming out of the East. I don't think the Lakers deserve anything. I think they got lucky last year, just like Jordan got lucky never having to face a great team. I don't think Jordan would have gotten any rings if he had been born say 8 years earlier. LA, Boston, and Detroit had much better championship teams back then than the Bulls, imho. Once those teams hit the pasture, it was all Chicago Bulls. But then again, maybe I'm talking trash like some do about Larry Holmes or Rocky Marciano. Maybe we shouldn't blame winners, because they didn't have much for competition. I must say I admired Scottie Pippen. No Pippen and maybe also no rings for Jordan. Maybe then we would have seen guys like Mailman Malone and Barkley reach the top of the mountain.

armols said...

Jason? Isn't that MattyJack's name, along with ten zillion other post boomer kidz?

He's wright...yur NBA schtick is pretty close to expert. Well,ok, yur a homer but you live in the land of the homers so all is forgiven. Rondo goes for 29-18-13 again and he's "Magic".

Weird that all other series appear to be sweeps.

My comment about the 84 2nd teams was hyperbolic but u got my drift.

I blame the lack of depth today on the NCAA upping the academic stds thus relegating promising hi skkkoolers to a career in dope and prison. Look at the NCAA tourney. See all the white dudes who have zero chance at the NBA. Something similar in futbol too, altho that game suffers from other problems rules related.too much emphasis on offense.

The NCAA should be banned for life. Heinous. Kids who aren't einsteins should have minour pro leagues to develop their skillz. From there they have a shot at the NBA or Euro League, or wtf.

But IMHO that academic rule is at the heaet of the depth issue.

The NYSE differs from NASDAQ in that anyone who wants to sell his shares at market can do so. The spread btwn bid and ask is maintained at .125. If there is no buyer the market maker assigned to that stock must step in and buy. These are known as "specialists" who are the ultimate insiders.NASDAQ has no such position, they simply make a market and let the buyers and sellers work it out. This is why the NYSE can halt trading when things get out of hand but NASDAQ cannot. You will never see a bid/ask spread widen or a share price fall instantly from $40 to 0 on NYSE.

criess said...

The stock market is the ultimate in herd manipulation. The specialists get to buy on the cheap whenever the herd is selling and then sell back to herd at a profit when prices rise and everyone wants back in.

Where things are strange today is the deregulated mkt where you can buy/sell the same stock at same time on different exchanges. The huge difference in price spreads on NYSE vs. NASDAQ Thursday for P and G for instance created a tremendous opportunity, which is why NASDAQ is now nullifying those trades and the call for consistent rules is being sung from the rafters.

socrates said...

I noticed that too with the Jason name. It couldn't be. Maybe it's someone goofing around. Mind games 101. But then it could just be a coincidence, so I welcomed him to the blog.

I'm definitely a homer. The thing is, since the 2004 Red Sox season, for me everything else with sports will always be vegetarian gravy. You'd have to grow up here to understand what feeling cursed can do to a psyche.

But as we age, we start to realise it's just sports. Then with the one thing making us feel like losers, the Red Sox- they broke that Bambino curse in the most ridiculous fashion imaginable. Down 0-3 to the Yanks. No baseball team had ever come back down three to nothing in a seven game series. It'd been done only twice in sports, in hockey.

Sports are a guilty pleasure for socialist peaceniks. We're not supposed to enjoy them. They are obviously corrupt.

Before I continue, because you really made some great points donkeytale on corruption in sports, I noticed you made a post at pffugee camp. I'll never post there again. I'm not a masochist. I'm not into getting beat on verbally. But I did see the discussion about the possible therapeutic use of mushrooms. Those are homeopathic. We're talking Chinese. People should be careful with them. They can be effective. There can be side effects. The problem with disease, however, is that if you don't do something, you're going to die anyway. So you research all you can, reflect, weigh the pros and cons, and move forward. The best bet is good nutrition and exercise. But sometimes you have to roll the dice, be it acupuncture or whatnot.

I think we're basically fucked. I look at the ages people lived to back in the day, those old movie stars always seemed to make it to over 90.

Now we're lucky to reach 70.

I'm not scared of death. It's inevitable. It used to freak me out, the idea of it. Sorry, not trying to be morbid but positive about it.

I saw the asshats recommended your post. They are a nothing blog without you. Now they have Gzodic for their punching bag. They just can't disagree with someone without letting loose with ugly putdowns. Heck Wally, golly gee, I can be a meanie too at times. But they sustain it too long. They succeeded in driving me off.

Something clicked with Rondo about a month ago. He started hitting his free throws and jumpers with more consistency. It was the only flaw in his game. Now that he can hit free throws, there's no strategy to stop him. He might be as good a point guard in the league as any other. He might not look like the prototype Isiah Thomas. Lucky for the Celtics he is only 24. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the stamina to keep dominating.

It'll be good for basketball, if the Celtics advance. I'm not saying it's good that each league has one or two teams hogging all the titles. And I am a homer, so there is a bias there. You see, Cleveland has acted the last couple years as if they are entitled to win. They are the types who'll dance on the sidelines during a regular season win. The Celtics and Lakers are the only two teams left who have any bragging rights. San Antonio has become the Pistons. The Celtics are next for that. Too bad we're stuck with a tough salary cap situation for another two years. Otherwise, it would have been fun to have tried to get Dwyane Wade. That would be an incredible backcourt. Rondo and Wade. (contd.)

socrates said...

You are correct to focus in on college basketball to see why the NBA is in trouble. There are other factors like bad refs and superstar systems which don't allow teams to become real teams. The 2008 Celtics were a fluke. The Big Three were great, especially Paul and KG, but we also had a dependable Rondo, Posey, PJ Brown, and Eddie House. Too bad the Bucks had their star player get injured at the wrong time. I want to see more underdogs with depth and no-names who play the game the right way and not only that but succeed (1977 Trail Blazers?). I don't like watching the Jordans, Kobes, and LeBrons bully their way to titles.

It's rare for players to skip college and become great. Perkins was the best center coming out of high school. But who knows how good he could have been if he'd gotten four years of college to work on his skills. He could have been one of the greats of all time. He has found a niche through developing his defensive skills. But he could have been the complete package.

You think of all the money being generated by colleges, and it's simply unfair that the players see none of it. Who in their right mind would risk injury playing for free, when they can enter the draft and be assured of millions?

And you're quite correct that only so many will ever make it. Multiply 15 players by 30 or whatever teams, and that's not many jobs. There must be millions of people who were just a smidgen of talent away from getting one of those lucrative positions. What happened to them?

I totally agree with your take on the prison industrial complex and sports. It goes beyond that too. Now there are all those standardised tests. I think it's a ruse to psychologically coerce those on the fringes to drop out. Thus graduation rates are artificially enhanced.

But your idea of a minor leagues for basketball players is as likely as my call for an 80% reduction in the MIC. The college system is too engrained.

Hmmm. So you're saying the lack of NBA depth is due to good players being alienated from academics. I'll agree but add in a few other factors. For one, like I said above, a lot of players are no longer getting in a full four years to develop their skills. They learn bad habits or stagnate on the bench when they could have been developing.

There's also not much one can do if their coach doesn't give them a chance. Does Nate Robinson have limitations on defense? Sure. But it makes one wonder why he didn't get more of a chance during the end of the season to become a part of the rotation. Maybe he was benched over money? The Celtics would have lost a few million, if he had played just two more games.

Money becomes a problem. If a star is off his game, he is rarely benched. Bill Belichick of the Patriots doesn't coach that way. He'll go with an unproven player over an underachieving veteran, if he thinks it gives him a better chance to win. Doc Rivers will keep his stars in the game, even if it's obvious they are too long in the tooth and the team needs energy.

Albeit all I just blahged, you are probably correctamundo [/el Fonz] that high academic standards have forced a lot of good players to end up in poverty or worse, while players with lesser skills fill the rosters. College sports is corrupt especially in regards to basketball and football. That's bad capitalism. That's exploitation, period.

socrates said...

Which brings us to the stock market story. It's sad that people who don't do the work make the money simply by wearing suits and hedging and all that crap. It'd be nice to find out who made money off of what happened. And of who lost money. It makes no sense that a company can go bankrupt, yet the CEO's still get their luxurious severance packages.

So I guess you're saying there was something fishy but we don't know what it was? Does the typo explain what happened or is that a plate of red herring?

Maybe you could blog on this. What's Obama doing about it? Do you think we'll ever know what truly happened?

unfing said...

I didn't post dick at PFF, dude. If someone did in my username it was fraudulent. I think at one point ther e was a space before the letter "d" and they copied the name. That was banned for several usernames. But I hereby proclaim to not have posted anything of PFF in months. I haven't even looked at it in weeks. I do peek at FSZ occassionally to see uf there are any pictures of Lil Ms BorderJumper. She definitely nourishes my plant..

socrates said...

Sorry about that. It was an old thread for some strange reason revived by Gzodik. He had responded to a post you made last August.

I now see I totally misread the point of the diary by supersoling. You said mushroom treatment is about keeping someone in the dark

Now I'm just confused. I haven't a clue what that was about.

I see your last post there was titled goodbye, suckas! That was a brilliant way to give them the brush off.

Ms. Border Jumper is kind of cute. I remember Blues sharing his insanity with her. I never quite understood what was up with that, but the general gist if I recall was she was doing dirty work for the illuminati or something.

Blues is exceptionally entertaining for a troll. I suppose he did attend LaRouche meetings. He started a survivor blog. I picture him owning some shack or bomb shelter in the woods stocked with cans and whatnot.

Sorry for the false alarm.

Whenever I visit Pffugee, I'm always shocked by how few comments are made. Laurajohn pulled a Maryscott, throwing away the opportunity to build up a decent sized blog.

I remember that whenever we were getting some good dialogue going, she'd chuck up an open thread making fun of our propensity to talk some sports and put up music videos. The last straw for me was how they treated Eric. No way was he donkeytail. That was in all likelihood condoleaser/bottles (Lachow), the dude who got busted for molesting patients, MajorFlaw's right hand man. Or it might have been MBNYC. It was someone trying to make both Dave and FSZ look bad. Too bad MattyJack turned out to be such a coward as DFQ called him. Regular guys my arse. You're a legend for standing up to that crap in real time. DFQ admired you for that. I covered that a few diaries ago.

sturejaz said...

I'm ruling nothing out re: stock market altho the story about someone typing "billion" instead of "million" seems farfetched. Ibelieve those systems are in monetary units for one thing, so you'd have to tyoe 3 extra zeroes, and there are levels of security authorization for large trades that means someone else would need to approve a trade of that magnitude. The official suspicion, that the fear of the Greek crisi triggered cresecendoes of computerized sell programs is probably accurate. The question remains: who profited and who lost in the waves of sales? Did someone on the inside trip a lever purposefully? I think this is what they are studying and will take some time.

I'd like to see some black on white Border Jumper porn myslef. That would be greatness. And let there be no doubt, Blews is pure greatness. I also get a laff out of Stu's "brave young fighting drone" schtick. You can even get Failreft at FSZ, so there is essentially no reason for the existence of PFF.

MattyJack may be right that trolls are dead. Unfortunately, so is his blog. Even with some occasional good dairies the threads are zilch. Classic whiteysphere blogging had threads and trolls. The interaction was requisite. This was the meaning of PFF, a home for trolls, which at its peak had 18,000 unique visitors per month, more than all the Kos Klone blogs combined. MJ and LJ are simply stupids, not to mention intellectually and or emotionally too stunted to inherit Peeder's legacy and do anything with it except run it into the ground.Basically, you have two lottery teams there, with FSZ barely ahead of cellar dwelling PFF.

As for the unlikelihood of there ever being an NBA farm league, there uhhhh, is one. And don't forget to google "CBA" the league that predates the NBA and served as a feeder system back in the 70s and 80s. Don't forget there once was the ABA too, which was so successful the NBA bought it out. CBA, the league Isiah killed, served a very useful niche.

But no, cutting the MIC 80 percent is a peacenikkk dream....especially since peacenikkks are not coherently organized around the idea.

The English and German elections reveal that the Greens in Germany doubled to 12.5 percent in state elections and hold the key to Merkel's survival. In England the Pwog party Lib Dems actually lost votes and so did Labour, now will the pwogs back the winning Conservatives? All in all, the limits of electoral leftism seem manifest in the results. Note merkel's party making common cause with the greens and also being against tax cuts because REAL conservatives balance their budgets. In the US we have ana bdication from reality on the right and the Reft. The left doesn't exist, at least in white mans clothes. Something to do with ours being a two party system if spoiled petulant looosers.

BoyintheMachine said...

Woah! I came back to see if anybody responded to my comment but I can't find it. I don't know what I did wrong.


Kudos for this. We need more people to speak out on this as history has documented case after case of Satanic Panic hysteria.

And there were signs that we were heading for a nother go round.

For those who don't know, there are still organizations around who promote the belief that Satanic Ritual Abuse is a real phenomenon and they seek to "educate" law enforcement, counselors, and the media when they can get them to listen.

Also, we have the Christian Prayer Warrior networks. These idiots actually believe they can identify satanic individuals in their community which they then use as scapegoats for the communities problems. They call this "spiritual mapping". Another belief associated with spiritual mapping is a mythology in which geographical areas are controlled by demons. These "warriors" believe they can identify the name and rank of these "demons", information which they use in spiritual warfare. When these people believe these demons and satanic people are driven out of their communities they can then win the geographic territory for Christ.

So yes, it is very important we continue to speak out against the Satanic Panic hysteria because it can rear it's ugly head at any time.

Again, great blog post!

socrates said...

I concur with your read on the stock market brouhaha.

*** The typo explanation doesn't add up. Though the source of the typo (whether it really happened or not) is a good lead.

*** I was telling you a bit before about one of Garbo's silent movies which got heavily censored. The rich fockers planted a rumour that there would be a mining strike. They did that after pumping up the value of the stocks. For an amateur economist at best, I figure the scams are going to be simple in nature yet hard to track. We never seem to ever get the truth either, just innuendo and enigmas.

*** This is a good opportunity for Obama to cement a second term, if he takes action against such things, unemployment drops, and inflation is held in check. I don't think taxes are that big a factor in deciding elections. The #1 factor is if the general mood is one of optimism. That's my way of saying, "It's the economy, stupid." For this reason, I think 2004 was stolen. Kerry ran a dumbass campaign, but no way was GW popular at that point. I digress.

PFFugee, MLW, and FSZ are failures precisely because there is not enough dialogue, and by chance when there is some, it is of the stupid variety.

Pffugee was formed pretty much for myself and Lord Byron. Weren't we the only two actually banned? I'm no longer there. Byron has semi-retired or gone into blog coaching. Laurajohn and Otvos are FSZ regulars. Laurajohn will probably white wall the place. Or maybe she can afford the $15 or whatever a month and will leave it up.

MattyJack may be correct the trolls are dead. But I don't think he knows that he is talking about himself. It was a self-inflicted wound too, which makes it all so delicious.

Faking he had a wife wasn't fatal. He could have even survived having thrown Dave under the bus. He should have just ignored us and Byron. I think MattyJack spent years in a detention center. It would explain his having to get a GED. Going to a fancy school makes me think he is a black sheep from a rich, Long Island family. His pranks were just a bit too twisted imho. There are those stupid criminal stories people love to hear about. He's a stupid troll. Like I said, it was all self-inflicted. In regards to my own blogging death, trolls had to make up fake posts and pass them off as being from myself. But I don't care. I generated a lot of good content, chunks of original stuff too. Trolls have been very sadistic towards me, but the content lives on.


socrates said...

I know the NBA has a development league. 11th and 12th guys get sent down there to get in playing time. They usually accumulate heady stats. It doesn't seem to be anything other than for keeping young guys from stagnating mentally. To keep hope alive, so to speak.

I heard of the ABA but never got to watch it. I know Dr. J and some other good players were in that league, and of course they were good enough to get the NBA to buy up teams like the Pacers and Nets.

How's this for an idea? College basketball is here to stay. But you could start a new professional league for 18-22 years olds and maybe a bit older. It would be so players like Perkins and Gerald Green could make money without joining the NBA to sit on the bench. It could be for any kid having trouble with academics. You could have a separate department set up to help those on the fringes find employment, if it looks like they're not going to make the NBA. Or maybe the league does all right for itself, especially if it could gobble up 18 year olds who aren't good enough like LeBron or KG to start right away in the pros.

The NBA charges too much for tickets. A lot of folks around here enjoy going to Pawtucket Red Sox games. It's nice and friendly. A professional under 25 league not affiliated with the NBA could work. They could get a tv deal. I'm sure there'd be a market for that. But the NBA one doesn't seem that good. It's just there. You could start a new league in some choice cities without teams. Poor kids could make some money for their families. And I really like the idea of having a separate department to help the youngins long term. That would be good public relations.

Going to college can be overrated. There's something called a library, and it's free for anyone.

College basketball players are simply getting ripped off, period.

You could come up with some gimmicks. Didn't one of those old leagues used to give points for winning quarters, so if there was a blow out, there was still a game to watch? Was that the other league you mentioned? The ABA invented the three point shot. That was a good one. I think it's overused nowadays. But back in the day, it became an exciting part of the game.

As for me being a socialist peacenik, that's me and other folks into granola. Obviously we have no political representation.

I know this will sound simple, but I think today's Democrats are symbolic of more normal Republicans of the past. The Republicans of today have brought us to the brink of fascism. It's shocking that none of the politicians from the GW Bush administration have been brought up on war crime and other charges.

What we do get is the freedom to vent. We can post stuff and as long as we don't incite violence, we never get in any trouble for it.

socrates said...


Someone showed up on the other thread which dealt a bit with McMartin and more on the West Memphis 3. Someone showed up trying too hard to argue that innocent people weren't locked up. There have been a number of new entries since, so it's not your fault having trouble locating it.

The McMartin Preschool Scandal Briefly Revisited and Free the West Memphis 3 Immediately

I've been running into some blogger glitches too. I'm making sure to copy my posts before hitting the preview or publish buttons.

Bob deserves the credit for this entry. I only added some screenshots and links.

This dude donkeytale might be a good barometer of whether we are making a difference. He knew of McMartin and that it was a joke prosecution. But it looks like he didn't know some of the various players and the utter extent of this foolishness beyond McMartin. Now he does.

I didn't know anything about this until the last year. All it takes is finding out about one story. Before one realises it, they have easily started to see this has been about some warped, mass hysteria pattern going on decades. Only the goofiest of conspiracy theorists will buy into it. Unfortunately for Amanda Knox, one of them is a powerful prosecutor in Italy.

ovelamin said...

The CBA fielded.a team in the Rio Grande Valley in its final daze, and I agree the concept is a good one both as entertainment and some societal do-gooding. The issue is, as it always us, racism. Good christian white folks don't like the NBA much less support a team of ghetto gunners in their own little home towns. Maybe the NBA should just cut to the chase and form a prison league....

Poisonally, I think the whole anti Obama schtick is overblown both from left and wright and the TeaBags are ejaculating prematurely. This year will be anti incumbent so more Demotards than Republikkkans will loose but Obama will be fine. Where is his competition? I criticize him for compromising when he should be kicking ass. But the whole libertarian bent of the R's is "off" and recent events will invalidate the ideology without Obama or Dems doing anything, except to stand aside and allow the loosers room to shout themselves and each other in the foot.

socrates said...

I have to agree with you that racism has a lot to do with the NBA not being as popular as it could be. There are other problems of course, e.g. bad refs, boring isolation jump shooting.

Hockey doesn't do well, because half the country doesn't have the climate to grow up with it. Anyone can put a basketball net up in their backyard. I remember skating a bit as a youth. It's a lot of fun. One of the reasons I like basketball and to a lesser extent baseball is because I played those sports. Football not so much, but because I did throw the football around a bit, that adds to the enjoyment.

Golf- I played some putt putt. Tennis, a bit. I'd rather watch poker than auto racing based on having played some cards. If I hadn't, I doubt I ever would watch any of the games on tv. I wouldn't be able to relate to it.

Now you see some obvious racism going on with who the Utah Jazz pick as players. It's a backward state controlled by a cult. Their bible speaks of black people as being the devil or something weird. The Celtics used to get a bad rap about being racist during the Bird years. The big difference was those white dudes were some of the best players- Walton, Wedman, Jerry Sichting. Remember when Ainge went coast to coast in five seconds to win that college game? Danny had some skills. And for the record, it was Tree Rollins who was chowing on Danny's finger and not the other way around. Red Auerbach was also the first coach to field an all black line up and I think Russell was the first black head coach. Maybe the first black player played for the Celtics, not sure.

Racism is stupid, period. I'm glad Obama won. With the ineptitude of the Republicans, it was kind of a shoo in we'd get either an African-American or a woman President.

Like yourself, I wish Obama would kick more ass. I'm not sure he realises this is his chance to become an FDR, Lincoln, Mount Rushmore type dude. Seize the day, Obama!

I also agree that incumbents are in trouble. Most people are stupid, but they realise the system is not working. This is how a Hitler rises to power. Wilhelm Reich said the psychology of the masses forms the bedrock for totalitarianism. So we see fake lefties at pffugee kissing Huey Long's racist ass. We see teabaggers prematurely ejaculating as you put it.

Here's a woulda coulda shoulda for you. What if Teddy Kennedy never killed that woman in Cape Cod? He probably would have become President in either 1972 or 1976. I don't know what he was thinking when he stirred up trouble for Carter. It was kind of like this last one when Hillary Clinton wouldn't shut her yapper after it was obviously time for her to get out of the pool. Point being, if Teddy had won, maybe no Reagan and Bush bullshit and a better present than the crap we find ourselves in.

socrates said...

Ok donkeytale, here's some meta and current events which get to the heart of the Obama versus anti-Obama hysteria in the whiteysphere. I would much rather hear some debate. I see your point that the anti-Obama side takes it too far at times. That is coming from fake lefties at pffugee who love the President of Iran and Huey Long. It's coming from the teanuts. What I'd like is for people like yourself to ignore them and debate with the ideas coming out of the real progressive left.

This will include some Maryscott O'Connor meta. She is really into having her cake and eating it too with a glass of soy milk. I first noticed her doing that, when I started "cyberstalking" her posts. One day she'd be saying FU to Mumia T-Shirt wearers criticising the Big Cheese. The next day she'd be taking a dump on Obama.

In one post from yesterday, she was in top-notch, bipolar form. I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out what she wrote. I know not all my stuff is gold, but I do try to be coherent.

"either than rule about not calling out Kossacks in headlines of diaries applies to ALL Kossacks, or it applies to none. Just because Cenk has a fucking radio show doesn't mean he's IMMUNE to the rule.

The fact that people are PISSED at him because he called Obama on his shitty fucking SCOTUS nomination doesn't mean he should be savaged publicly in a diary headline.

Christ, the fucking HYPOCRISY over there is so goddamned thick you can barely wade through it."

Take your meds, Mary! The Young Turk dude's diary was, "The Problem With Elena Kagan Is Barack Obama."

Didn't O'Connor get herself banned from DKos, because she got verklempt over one of her headlines being censored for breaking a rule? I guess she's a hypocrite who hates hypocrisy.

I don't know much about this new choice for Supreme Court. But I do believe Cenk should be able to post in peace at Daily Kos without getting trolled on. Herd mentality is not only found in the anti-Obama crowd. It's also found in the ObamaBot demographic.

The Young Turk dude appears to be the new pinata for the Kos Kops. I remember them going after Sirota, though when I went to check it out, Sirota had already deleted his diary in question. I think Obama was driven off of DKos too. That was before he became their hope messiah.

Cenk is holding Obama's feet to the fire. There's nothing wrong with that. If dives like DKos and Democratic Underground don't want to be perceived as Democratic Leadership Council tools, they need to cut the shit with their bullying and censorship.

This isn't the first time Cenk has pissed off the Kos Kops. Through a limited cybersleuth effort, I found this one. Apparently his tip jar had been troll rate hidden for a period of time. I notice at least three UGOGs and a UGOG/FSZ double agent were involved- taylormattd, vcmvo2, MBNYC, and Kestrel9000.

Kestrel9000 could be a political operative. I think those are the most likely paid fakes operating on those blogs. Francis looks pretty crazy calling them CIA. He took a splendid discovery of Kos being a fan of that evil organisation and turned it into a circus. Francis evolved into the rich man's Blues or Stu Piddy.

Well, that's about all I've got on that. Oh yeah, did you know Kestrel9000 has a confederate flag draped in his den? Isn't that special?

conise said...

Your basketball eminence---hats off to your Celtic worthies, who are kicking the living F out of Cleveland and your favourite small forward, Lebron.

The rumour I heard on the radio today is that he is signing with New Jersey, who are coming to Brooklyn next year. That is a most excellent move. Brooklyn is a great sports town.

Two moves that make very good business sense for the NBA: The Nets to Brooklyn and Lebron to the Nets.

socrates said...

Kareem Abdul Jabbar must have been reading this thread. He is calling for a 21 year old minimum age for the NBA. That would only solve half the problem. You'd still need to have a professional league for 18 to 21 year olds to have as an option rather than getting used by the college system or even not allowed in.

socrates said...

Wow, I didn't see you make that post two minutes before mine. I don't know what's up with LeBron, whether he is injured, is a choke artist, or a combination of both. I go with the general concensus here that the Celtics should be getting some credit for this. The story should be less about Cleveland and more about the fact that KG is back. The last time he was on the Celtics during the playoffs, we won the title. That was only two years ago. The Celtics are pretty good, play team ball with three hall of famers and a potential fourth (Rondo not Sheed). Orlando and the Lakers look good, but the Celtics need to be considered as much of a favorite as them. I'm not sure where the Suns fit in, and Cleveland is still alive.

socrates said...

By the way, in the old days Obama's Supreme Court nominee would be described as a handsome woman. I guess I'm showing my sexist side. At least I didn't mention Janet Reno. p:>

socrates said...

Check out these losers. 22 year olds faked their age to star in high school basketball. I don't understand this one bit. There must be rec leagues they could have joined. Maybe they thought it could lead to college scholarships. Or maybe they just never grew up mentally. I don't get it. link

nesiabi said...

I remember a game in the mid seventies, Lakers-Celtics. Jabbar was guarded by Dave Cowens. Cowens looked like a young criminal enforcer and he played very physically, kicking crap out of Jabbar. He used his lower body, getting his weight leveraged beneath Jabbar's, banging and pushing him out of the low post to up near the free throw line.

My friend Rollett got the tickets from his employer. The Fabulous Forum had a pressbox at the top of the first level. Our seats were directly in front of the visiting radio announcers booth, which for this game was.....Johnny Most! Johnny was the greatest Celtic homer of them all and he saw a completely different game than the one I saw. In Johnny's view, the thuggish, evil Lakers were guilty of repeated felonious assault on the , clean-living Celtics who embodied the attributes of choir boys..


What a great treat to have Lakers tickets with the legendary Johnny Most only a row behind calling live play by play.

socrates said...

Johnny was fun to listen to. He was at his best when the Celtics played against the Pistons with Bill Laimbeer.

You go through those past decades and can see there were various reigns of terror. The Celtics and Lakers of the 80s. Then the Pistons and finally Jordan's Bulls. I think the Rockets won a couple titles. There was Kobe and Shaq dominating. Then you have to say the last dynasty has been San Antonio.

Now we have some serious bragging rights on the table. If the Celtics and Lakers meet, it will be an opportunity for either team to call this mini-era their own. LeBron has proven nothing. It's to be seen whether he ever wins a title.

It's probably best for basketball if Orlando or Phoenix wins it all. I may be a homer, but I think the Celtics have to be the favorites. The Lakers won last year, but there was no KG. Orlando was pushed to 7 without having to deal with KG. Thw window may be closing in on the Celtics, but they are playing very well. Rondo has reached a new level. Even Rasheed Wallace is finally fitting in.

The Western teams better hope Orlando and Boston beat each other up. Orlando has to be hungry. The Celtics are like Ali coming back to reclaim the belt. My only fear is that Cleveland has been overrated the whole time. I think the Celtics will win it all. If they don't, then they don't. Phoenix is the wild card. The other three are the favorites. It all starts again on Sunday.

bob said...


Thanks for the kind words! :)

You said:

"Also, we have the Christian Prayer Warrior networks. These idiots actually believe they can identify satanic individuals in their community which they then use as scapegoats for the communities problems..."

Thanks for the info about these, deluded or bat-sh*t crazy, potentially very dangerous witch-hunters.

haupprig said...

Then there were four, What a crappy second round. Three sweeps and the Celtics humiliating CLE in three straight games. James showed great physical ability but not winning team ball ability. He could turn out to be another, bigger Dominique Wilkins. All flash no belt. The consensus seems to say he will stay loyal and stay home. Wow. They need a new regime if that's the case, he needs to be surrounded by some talent and get coached up, fer shure.

Its hard to say if boston is that good or CLE that bad, but the KG factor looms large. Should be a good eastern final.

In the west you have to go with Phoenix in the upset. It would be nice to see Nash win a belt after all the wasted years beside Dirk in DAL. At this point any combo of the final four advancing to the final should make for two good competitive rounds to make upo for the first two.

socrates said...

Bob made a comment on an old thread. I'm responding here, because I'm not sure how many people check out new comments made on old entries.

You mentioned a Carol Lutz who claims there are 70 ritual abuse-mind control victims who themselves have become "therapists" for others in the alleged, same boat.

I couldn't locate that person through google after a light search. But I don't doubt the numbers. I noticed more than a few "therapists" like this exist.

Perhaps my saying these people are part of a cult was taken too far. But I do believe that this phenomenon has many cult-like features. So I'm in agreement with you that there are similarities to how people become socialised into the sra-mind control sub-culture with Scientology.

Each set of people have mental problems. They are then provided with a warped ideology which brings superficial relief to their worries. It explains their confusion, albeit artificially and in an unhealthy manner.

The satanic panic has provided the same kind of relief for non-thinkers in regards to widespread child abuse in all forms. It no longer becomes the responsibility of society as a whole to clean up its own compliance with what Alice Miller refers to as poisonous pedagogy. It enables parents and authority figures to turn the other way. For the fault lies in others manipulated by Satan.

All kinds of groupthink display cult-like characteristics. Sometimes it afflicts a whole state (Utah) or country (Nazi Germany).

socrates said...

DTale- Sports curmudgeon Bob Ryan has a column today which agrees wuth you that the second round sweeps were lame. I'm not saying Ryan is Shadowthief. Curmudgeon fits his personality.

Rasheed Wallace had an interesting quote. He said he didn't come to Boston for regular season games. He's admitting that an on-off switch exists.

Phoenix doesn't seem to have a chance based on they're not being tall enough.

My take is that Orlando won't be a cakewalk for the Celtics. I'll say going in that it's a toss-up. In my heart and mind I think the Celtics are the better team. But I'd be a fool and/or obnoxious to say so.

If I was going to bet money, I'd say LeBron is leaving Cleveland. He might have the biggest ego in sports. He knows that unless he wins a ring, your Dominique Wilkins analogy might set in.

KG said if he had known the future, he would have left Minnesota years sooner.

KG is the best player on the Celtics. I say that in consideration of his overall career. Of course Rondo is now the best player. What people don't understand about the Celtics is that they are deep in quality and have a defensive system that is unrivaled by any other team. Ray and Paul will make the Hall of Fame. No other team has three of those and a potential fourth in Rajon Rondo. Rasheed Wallace is also considered to be just one level below that.

The Celtics thrive on being taken for granted. It is for the best that so many people are saying the Cavs lost and not that the Celtics won. You came close to saying the same thing. I thank you for this. p:>

KG is almost all the way back from his knee injury. He didn't have a devastating microfracture. His was the type that takes about a year to fully heal and become stronger. It is almost a year later.

I agree with you that no matter what combination comes out of the final four, the finals should be a good one. I continue to be an anyone but the Lakers kind of dude. I honestly don't think Phoenix has a chance, but their best one would be against the Celtics.

My other fear is that Orlando is just another Cleveland. They've never won the big one, so there's no reason to expect they will. They remind me of Dallas, or Utah with Malone and Stockton, or any other team that came close but never got the cigar.

For those who are averse to reading about the basketball playoffs, they are almost over. Thanks for your patience.

letswice said...

The more I consider what you're sayin about the Celts the more I like a classic Lakers/Celtics final. Neither of these teams coulkd hold the jocks of the 1980s versions, but they have a few great and several very good players on both teams, well coached, disciplined teams. With all the parity the NBA has become even more a coaches league in the playoffs.

Lebron is being wooed heavily by everybody in Ohio to stay put. If they bring in a great not good coach then I think he stays.

I'm sticking with PHX in the upset. The Magic and the Celtics go 7 and the final game goes double OT and the

The 22 year old troll at Odessa Permian is now ifficially in hot water. A grrrl steooed forwarded and accused him of tapping her a year ago when she was just knew this guy was inspired not merely for his love of interscholastick basketball.

bob said...


You had mentioned that older blog posts were still attracting comments, so I went through some of them to see if I could add anything of relevance.

I mis-spelled the woman's name.
It's Carol RUTZ, not "Lutz".

I like the way you described this:
"Each set of people have mental problems. They are then provided with a warped ideology which brings superficial relief to their worries. It explains their confusion, albeit artificially and in an unhealthy manner."

There was a time when I was quite sympathetic to SRA victim-claimants. I wanted to "let them off the hook" for the absurdity of their claims, and would suggest that perhaps they had been improperly influenced by quack "therapists" into developing false "memories" of events that never really happened.

But recently I've noticed that such attempts to be "understanding" & charitable with victim-claimants only triggers a flood of shrieking "FMSF! You're pro-pedophile!" or some such crap. So, I've given up on trying to be sympathetic or charitable to victim-claimant liars.

Anonymous said...

There is no evidence that anyone is "provided with a warped ideology which brings superficial relief to their worries."

Most of the attacks on child abuse survivors do come from the false memory movement (like Underwager) or those connected to it. Others use the same arguments the false memory movement uses.

The question is who is lying. Those that attack child abuse survivors or those exposing these crimes.

bob said...

Anonymous said:

"Most of the attacks on child abuse survivors do come from the false memory movement (like Underwager) or those connected to it. Others use the same arguments the false memory movement uses."

As far as I can see, no one here is attacking child abuse survivors. I've never had contact with any members of FMSF, but none of the dozens of people I've personally networked with - who were skeptics and critics of RA-Mind Control claimants - seemed desirous of debunking the reality of pervasive child abuse in our society. I am personally, here, attacking frauds, con-artists and liars - but I'm not attacking the reality of child abuse, rather I'm attacking the fraudulence of NWO-Illuminati-satanic cult and Mind Control allegations.

Sexual abuse is sexual abuse, physical abuse is physical abuse, emotional abuse is emotional abuse. Some RA/mind control claimants may have experienced one or more forms of abuse, but that does not mean their specific descriptions of experiences they claim to have had, are necessarily accurate or true. Siumilarly, debunking their preposterous "international conspiracy of evil" allegations does not mean they couldn't have had genuine abuse experiences.

I'll let Dr Kluft speak for me now, in quotations taken from his chapter in: "The Dilemma of Ritual Abuse". You know who his is, I assume...not a member or sympathizer of FMSF, right?

anonymous said:
"The question is who is lying. Those that attack child abuse survivors or those exposing these crimes".

Dr Kluft: ..."in a given patient, one may find episodes of photographic recall, confabulation, screen phenomena, confusion between dreams or fantasies and reality, irregular recollection, and wilful misrepresentation". [RA claimant patients sometimes "wilfully misrepresent", or LIE]

Dr Kluft:"I had decided to keep records of all alleged cult-related murders, kidnappings and sacrifices reported by my patients and those I saw in consultation. After a few years it became apparent that if my patient's accounts were accurate, they would have depopulated the countries in which they lived"
[i.e.- my patients must be lying about murders, kidnappings and sacrifices]

Dr Kluft:"I also found that some patients brought up cultic materials whenever certain dynamics were at play in the therapy and that others' allegations were not unusual but disquietingly impossible" [i.e. - some patient allegations are impossible bullsh*t]

anonymous said:
"There is no evidence that anyone is "provided with a warped ideology which brings superficial relief to their worries."

Well, that's not what Kluft says:
"Many MPD (DID) DDNOS and other groups of patients, victims and survivors are passionate students of the literature related to their conditions; many express an intense desire, verbalized as an urgent need, to meet and network with fellow patients in the ostensible search for mutual support and validation. groups for victims or survivors of many varieties can be found in most cities and towns. Some are invaluable, and some are hothouses for promulgating psychopathology. I am particularly wary about leaderless or peer-facilitated support groups for dissociative disorder patients and others who allege that they are survivors of ritualistic abuse.
..."the possibility that members will, under the aegis of group forces and their own vulnerabilities, come to believe that they too have experienced what others represent as their personal histories"

socrates said...

Bob, if you go to my forum and register, you can pm me your blogger email account, and I can ensure you receive every post that is made at DFQ2. You'll also be able to make blog entries.

This is an important issue. The truth is clearly out there, however, it's not widely known imho.

I know we're not supposed to speak badly of the dead, but well-known Democrat Andy Stephenson was a scumbag disinfo merchant. He was a member of the Lefty Liars Club which has included Larry Johnson, Brad Friedman, Jeff Wells, Jason Leopold, Brett Kimberlin, Larisa Alexandrovna, and many others.

Andy did some work with an obvious disinfo writer named Tom Flocco. This one article had a lot of bullshit that the few of us are well aware of.

This is the type of crap anonymous probably considers as proof of his and others' insane or for grifting purposes claims.

Doug Masner has made an appearance on that Not Believable thread. He and Bob are making good points, that the deluded deserve the ridicule they receive.

Here's his post, a response to anonymous:

There is no evidence that any of the above is occurring. Nor any evidence that anyone was "deluded" or "gullible."

Such would only be written by the deluded and gullible. SMART is entirely cult-like in that it is entirely resistant to any information or facts that might force them to revise their conspiracist presumptions. It's hilarious that SMART cries that people who recognise the existence of false memories control the media while SMART refuses to admit media and seems to do nothing to actually promote its own cause beyond harassing people on message boards. Are the clinical psychology research papers that entirely contradict the theory of repressed traumatic memory an example of "the false memory movement" controlling information? Is most of academia in on the plot to protect satanists? I suppose the debunking of Satanic Panic myths and tales were all the work of secret cultists as well? I suppose it may make you feel better to believe that all of your detractors are themselves evil cultists - and why not? The very essence of SMART is that you can believe whatever you want, no matter how contrary to reality it is. When you have a speaker from last year telling the audience that she witnessed Dr. Mengele opening "quantum portals" to call forth demons, it's amazing you have the audacity to argue in defense of your scientific veracity. You chose to speak your demented fantasies out loud at the expense of others. Stop crying when not everybody just ignores your idiocy, and some rational people subject you to the mockery you deserve. And tell me, what are you want-to-be victims doing to inform the media of your plight? We have the Vatican running a paedophile crime ring - have you thought of joining the fight to bring the Catholic Church to justice, or are you content fighting the imaginary crimes of imaginary satanists so that you may play the victim, rather than being of real help to real victims?

Anonymous is incapable of acknowledging that normal third parties like myself, Bob, Doug, BITM, and Donkeytale have no dog in the hunt and can see that his deluded claims have not one shred of proof. This is what he added to the archived thread yesterday: "Those attacking cult survivors are often members of cults using aliases or have actual ties to cults or cult-like groups."

Uhm, no. You're a fool and are as much of a waste of time as anything written by Tom Flocco and Andy Stephenson.

socrates said...

Donkeytale, I had a feeling there was something more to that 22 year old playing high school hoops than a return to glory.

So the kid is not only a cheater at basketball but also with women. He's looking at some serious jail time. That's too big an age difference to get any sympathy from me. Yet innocent until proven guilty.

Celtics-Lakers would be a good one. It would put to rest who has been the real king of the mountain the last few years. Both teams have very small windows left. It could be now or never, before a drought (serious rebuilding or mediocrity) sets in for both.

On a side note, the Celtics-Magic is also a good opportunity to answer some what ifs about last year. Orlando has Jameer what's his name back. We have KG. Keep an eye on the Perkins-Howard match up. If Perk can hold his own, that will be a biggie. Also KG versus that other dude, yikes, I can't remember names, but Orlando's big forward is pretty good, but KG is at least a bit better imho. Then we shall see if Orlando can contain Rondo. I think the Celts have the edge at the 2 and 3 spots. Orlando may have a deeper bench, but the Celtics appear to have the stronger players coming off it.

I want to say Celtics in 5 or 6. I'll be surprised if it goes 7, even if Orlando wins the series. I think one team will be better, and that one will go to the finals without having to sweat too much. Two years ago, the Celtics' toughest series were the first two, the Hawks and then Cleveland. They then easily dispatched of Detroit and LA. I'm thinking this may be deja vu all over again. The Celtics should be now hitting their stride in knowing each other. The Big Three were always the superstars on their teams but never won. They each have deferred individual goals to work within the Celtics' pride model. KG said there has been some friction between the young and old guys, but that now the vets understand the importance of Rondo. And Rondo and Perk fully appreciate having these chances to win rings alongside three Hall of Famers while they are still relatively early in their careers. The future is now for the Boston Celtics. The switch has been turned on.

taleling said...

The troubling aspect of the SRA believers is the stock fallback: "yeah, but how do you explain all these cases of child sex abuse?

Given that sex abuse is as human an activity as any other, including lying and delusional thinking as other not so pretty examples of peoples' typical stock in trade, it amuses me that this factoid somehow dismisses the insanity of.SRA.

Amerikkka has clearly fallen off the deepend into a moral abyss, and sure enuff, we are being led down the hellpath based on the good intentions of people so reality challenged that they don't even consider the realworld ramifications of their illogical obsessions and fears.

Wow. Just wow. And its not like child sexual abuse is on the rise, its simply being reported on with more regularity.
That people cannot handle the truth and must defensively create fantasy worlds to shield ourselves from man's (ie, our) degeneracy, perversion and sickness unto death, is not really so surprising.

The fault lies with those who look upon this as a career building opportunity, as Soc points out, including her royal highass Oprah.

I never thought of Ray Allen as a hall of famer, or Pierce either. Both just very good players. But two rings will be impossible to deny either one.

Matchups tell the story, and the series will be won based on inside play. Garnett is a shooin HOF, and if he rises to the occasion it looks good for Boston. If Howard, Carter, and Jameer rise to the occasion along with PierceN Rondo and Allen, then this should be a great series. What happens too much these daze is one team inflicts their will on the other, exploiting matchup advantages and coaching, and the other team folds.

Let's hope for good competition instead, regardless which teams make the finals.

bob said...

Socrates & Doug,

That was a great rejoinder, Doug!

However, (with no offense meant to you), I vehemently disagree with your suggestion that RA/mind control claimants should demonstrate their sincerity by becoming more involved with real child abuse issues.

One of the things that I find so upsetting about these frauds & liars, is their efforts to portray themselves as advocates for real child abuse victims and insinuate themselves into the more general movements of child abuse survivors.

Those efforts of theirs are EXTREMELY offensive to me, because having blatant liars and con-artists claiming to represent child abuse victims threatens the credibility of all true child abuse victims. The worst possible disaster that could befall legitimate child abuse victim advocacy, would be for Neil Brick or Kathleen Sullivan or Sue Ford to become some kind of official national spokesperson or representative for real child abuse victims, in my opinion.

Anonymous said...

reply to Mesner's comment above from the other page

It has been proven that false memory proponents swung media opinion on child abuse issues in the early 1990's.

Calling a group cultlike because the person disagrees with the group's opinions is just name calling without evidence.

Mesner ignores all facts contrary to his opinions. A quick search of the Internet shows that Mesner harasses his opponents in a variety of areas, with insults and name calling as above.

The recovered memory debate has many sides. The clear majority of those that work with trauma victims believe that it exists.

Mesner pulls one statement from one person at a conference above out of context, ignoring the rest of their story as well as all of the information proving that extreme child abuse and cult abuse exists.

Mesner writes: "I suppose it may make you feel better to believe that all of your detractors are themselves evil cultists - and why not?"

But no one ever wrote this. What was written was:
"Those attacking cult survivors are often members of cults using aliases or have actual ties to cults or cult-like groups."

And this is true. Mesner misrepresents others arguments and statements to ridicule them.

Mesner himself is connected to several cultlike or Satanic groups.

A quick search of Internet shows him to be a DJ on a "radiofreesatan" website.

He is mentioned on a "church of satan" website.

On another webpage he is cited as having done an illustration and quote for the book "Might is Right" with an Anton Levey into.

He is connected to which uses the same symbol on its website that the the Process church did. The Process church has been called a cult by some. They believed in Jehovah, Lucifer and Satan.

Mesner justifies his vicious attacks on others the same way a playground bully does when he doesn't like the color of another person's shirt. In this way he blames the other person for his abusive behavior. Yet he is responsible for his own behavior.

Mesner brings up the Catholic church. But a quick look at the SMART website shows that they have many articles in their newsletter exposing the Catholic church and their cover ups. I could find no articles on the Internet showing Mesner posting anything on the Internet on this topic.

Anonymous said...

reply to Bob, Doug's alias

Doug is connected to the FMSF.

Bob misrepresents Kluft's opinion, picking out only those that back his own opinions.

Kluft states in his chapter he holds a moderate view. He also writes about how those wanting to attack child abuse survivors use their attacks on ritual abuse survivors as a starting point. He states they create a "straw man target" to initiate their agendas.

Kluft discusses events where he believed ritual abuse occurs. He also writes about receiving threats on the phone that he would be killed if he did not back off. He wrote that usually he could not tell if a ritual abuse allegations was accurate or erroneous.

Calling people cons, frauds and liars is just name calling again.

Many in the child abuse prevention field work together to stop child abuse crimes. Those that attack ritual abuse and extreme abuse survivors may be doing so to discredit all child abuse survivors, as Kluft wrote in his chapter.

socrates said...

What's up with this anonymous coward? He or she can't even be a semi-anonymous coward like myself, Bob, and DTale. Doug's the only one of us who has revealed his name. He's also not a member of the Process Church, never was.

Maybe anonymous would be taken more seriously if he told us what his dog in the hunt is. Is he a quack shhrink? Is he a religious nutjob? Is he the proverbial troll in the basement with cheetoh juice running down his t-shirt?

Apologies to Doug for msspelling his name. It's Mesner. Due to a blogging addiction, half of my key letters have worn off. Due to Le Coffee de Affaire, I no longer have my return, enter, question mark or arrow keys. I am thus forced to copy and paste things, such as paragraph breaks and slashes [/digression city]. Due to human nature and as an effect of being cyberstalked, once in a while I act like a baby and immaturely respond to el douchies such as anonymous.

Anyone who has missed Doug's piece on a SMART conference, this is a must read. Make sure to enlarge the font size. Even those without an internet addiction and thus probably retain 20-20 vision will have trouble reading the following unless doing so. That's my only complaint about Doug. Enlarge the font, dude!

Report from the S.M.A.R.T. Ritual Abuse/Mind-Control Conference 2009, Part 1

My basketball game's coming up, so I'm not sure how much I can post. It's probably for the best. My mind goes to wandering. Before you know it, I'm repeating my Karl Rove threatened Michael Connell hoax schtick.

The best part of this situation is that anonymous coward is clearly in over his head, so it's not difficult to parry and then counterpunch. He's on enemy turf. He can's simply say we are all one person with sock puppets, like Alexandrovna did to myself and a few others at Democratic Underground. He won't have direct access to the mods like Larisa does and be able to erase his embarassing posts.

Mentioning Alexandrovna might sound like it came out of nowhere. But she was close friends with Andy Stephenson. Andy was the leader in presenting this specific SRA tinfoil at Democratic Underground and elsewhere like with his collaboration with Tom Flocco. Then it's a hop and a skip to my other schtick on election fraud and to Larisa buddies such as ex-felon Brett Kimberlin, Brad "scumbag" Friedman, Jason Leopold, Larry Johnson, and other frauds.

Ha, anonymous coward says Bob is Doug. Maybe Anonymous is Larisa Alexandrovna! Bob is Canadian. Doug's a fellow Massachusetts bloke. It would have made more sense to say I'm Doug. I've already been been "exposed" as being donkeytale, shadowthief, may41970, Jay Reynolds, David Byron, noom, AnonymousArmy, Creeksneakers2, the_last_name_left, the fake socrates, and even some Socrates troll who existed before I ever took the name and more usernames I can't remember right now.

When people can't deal with the content, they resort to goofy attacks such as those on display by this anonymous coward. I can totally relate to Bob's getting frustrated with numbnuts such as anonymous.

socrates said...

A bit on basketball: Paul Pierce was given the nickname of The Truth by Shaq. Paul has Hall off Fame numbers. He never had a ring though. He was the 2008 playoff MVP. He outplayed Kobe. One more ring would solidify his making the Hall, but I don't think it's necessary. KG is automatic. Ray, hmmm, he's put up some incredible numbers himself over the years. I'm not sure how anal the basketball Hall of Fame is. If it's as difficult to get in as baseball, then I concede there is some debate to be had.

I would not be surprised if either Orlando or Boston wins this series. I would be surprised if the winner of this series doesn't win it all. I am a homer, so people need to take my picking the Celtics with a grain or two of salt. However, I am an informed homer, so I wouldn't take my predicting the Celtics winning their 18th title lightly.

I also agree with you donkeytale, that in most series one team usually asserts its will and wins rather easily, or easier than expected. For memory purposes, of course a dramatic seven game epic would be for the best. When I look back at title runs, the ones I remember best are those epic battles with the Lakers and 76ers. I don't remember much about the afterthought of beating a mediocre Houston team for one of those 17. For baseball, I barely remember the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004. I do remember Foulkie tossing the ball underhand to first to end the Curse of the Bambino. But I most remember the series before when "we" came back from 0-3 to the Stinkees.

With the Patriots, I'll always remember the first Super Bowl. The other ones were gravy. If the Celtics win it this year, I'll surely remember this one as much as the 2008 victory. For not many have really given the Celtics a chance. They still don't. Plus, the Lakers are on our heels with 15 titles to our 17. It'd be nice to get a bit of breathing room for that. Yet, many of us Celtic fans consider the Lakers as having only 10 titles, for 5 of them were won in Minneapolis.

socrates said...

Doug's made new responses on this thread. I asked him and anonymous coward to make posts here, but for those interested, ye should check out the archived one.

Doug Mesner said...

Okay - here I am, and I think I'll post my last one in full, because I would hate for "anonymous" to miss it:
"It has been proven that false memory proponents swung media opinion on child abuse issues in the early 1990's."
Despite the fact that we know that your standards of "proof" only go so far to include what you'd like to believe, I'll agree that "false memory proponents swung media opinion" and that they did so with facts, empirical research, and evidence. "The media" was fully willing to believe sensational recovered memory stories, it was a lack of factual basis that eventually killed that trend.
I never called SMART cult-like merely because I disagree with it. I called it cult-like because its members believe in propositions that are demonstrably untrue (and please, tell me how I took the quote about Mengele from "Royal's" presentation out of context, or any of the comments made by Julainne or DeJoly Labrier, for that matter), they are impervious to new information that might force them to revise their opinions (as in the Amirault case, the debunking of Michelle Remembers and Satan's Underground), they are hostile to outsiders (I've been to many pseudoscience conferences that allow non-believers and outsiders), and they perceive any outside disagreement as being part of a conspiracy (as in the accusation that I myself belong to cults). Please, tell me, what "cult-like" behaviour am I engaged in. In several other internet postings I have mentioned that I am not a part of the former cult known as The Process (which no longer exists), but contributed research to a book about them (Love Sex Fear Death, Feral House, 2009).
"He is mentioned on a "church of satan" website." Yes, and SMART is mentioned on Does that mean that SMART is part of The Process?
I also find it funny how Neil Brick cries that he is being "bullied". When one peruses the SMART website, one can easily find ad hominem attacks upon real scientists and researchers like McHugh and Loftus. McHugh is denigrated for defending paedophiles, when of course he's not out to defend paedophiles, he's defending those who were falsely accused on the non-evidence of recovered memories. SMART can not dispute Loftus's replicate-able false memory research proving the existence of false memories, so instead her "ethics" are questioned. But, of course, when the question becomes 'who is SMART?', well, then it's just "bullying".
A quick internet search of SMART organiser Neil Brick shows that he is delusional enough to claim that he was brain-washed by Freemasons to be an assassin, yet he paints himself as some type of psychotherapy expert. A quick email exchange with Neil Brick's boss at the Behavioral Health Network in MA reveals that his SMART work has "no official relationship to Behavioral Health Network, Inc" and is entirely unrelated to the the services he provides therein.

Doug Mesner said...

An interview with the president of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation reveals that the ISSTD feels strongly that SMART has "nothing to do" with their organisation "at all". In fact, when it was pointed out the SMART could be reached through their self-help links, the ISSTD declared that a glaring "mistake" and removed the link. So SMART really has nothing to do with Dissociative studies even if I didn't disagree with them on the issue of recovered memories. Even experts in the field of dissociation who disagree with me on the issue of traumatic amnesia agree with me that SMART is a delusional group of paranoiacs who should not be pretending to be experts in the field.
A search of SMART reveals articles about the Catholic Church insofar as they are used to expand the scope of a conspiracy theory that is meant to prove recovered memories, but there seems to be no action on SMART's part against the church itself, as they probably feel the Catholic Church has actually been infiltrated by satanists. For my part, I am aiding Project Reason in bringing litigation against The Pope

Doug Mesner said...

Hello Bob -
(Sorry, I'm just catching up.) I understand your point regarding the tastelessness of involving conspiracy theorists in actual anti-abuse movements that they've done so much to harm and cast doubt upon. As I don't think there is any real likelihood hood of that, I'm really trying to demonstrate that the actual combat of abuse is something that an organisation like SMART isn't at all interested in. Rather, they are trying to protect the idea of legitimacy ragarding their own delusions.
It is funny that somebody who posts as "anonymous" should complain about suspicions regarding our identities. "Anonymous" also writes a lot like Neil Brick. Speaking of Brick, if you guys are writing anything and want audio of the ISSTD interview I reference, or the emails with the Behavioral Health Network, let me know. The more people who know about this fraud, the better.
And to clear up another bit of bullshit by "anonymous" - the idea that I am "connected" to the FMSF has no meaning. I'm not a member of the FMSF, nor a consultant. If by "connected" it is meant that I've been quoted in their newsletters, then yes, I'm "connected". Beyond that, I'm not (not that there would be any shame in being so).

Doug Mesner said...

Here's an article you might all find interesting.

bob said...

Anonymous said...
"reply to Bob, Doug's alias"

Several people know who I am, and that I'm not Doug nor Socrates nor Dream's End nor Michael Aquino. There are hundreds of internet postings with my legal name attached to them, on subjects related to this one. However, as there are real-life groups in my area affiliated with American patriot/christian militias, when I decided that I had to speak out about the connections between those militias and RA/mind control "survivor" cults, I thought it would be prudent to adopt some pseudonyms.

anonymous said:
"Bob misrepresents Kluft's opinion, picking out only those that back his own opinions"

Not at all. You asked: "who are the real liars", so I chose quotes from someone who you would have to acknowledge as being more sympathetic to your perspective than to the FMSF perspective, to illustrate that even professionals sympathetic to you acknowledge that some RA/mind control allegations are obvious lies and that RA claimants have lied to them.

anonymous said:
"Kluft states in his chapter he holds a moderate view. He also writes about how those wanting to attack child abuse survivors use their attacks on ritual abuse survivors as a starting point. He states they create a "straw man target" to initiate their agendas".

Yes, I'm aware of Kluft's opinions - that's WHY I chose him to quote from, if you still don't "get" that.

I'm very much aware of how this theory of Kluft's has been exploited by RA/mind control survivor cultists, in attempts to discredit their detractors by portraying those persons as wishing to discredit ALL allegations of child abuse & ALL child abuse claimants. However, it is you and your cohorts who are misrepresenting Kluft. Here's what he actually said:

Kluft:"Groups purporting to speak for those who claim to have been falsely accused of child abuse have found it useful to exploit the skepticism surrounding alleged ritualized abuse as a starting point for their efforts to demolish the credibility of those making more mundane accusations."

Kluft is very clear about attributing this alleged motivation to very specific persons - "Groups purporting to speak for those who claim to have been falsely accused of child abuse". Kluft does not attribute this motivation to ANYONE ELSE who might be skeptical about RA allegations, whereas your cult of lying frauds falsely attribute this motivation to EVERYONE who dares question the validity of your claims.


bob said...

part 2

You conveniently gloss over the most important part of Kluft's theory - that this alleged motivation for debunking RA claimant's lies would only make sense if the debunker was also engaged in "efforts to demolish the credibility of those making more mundane accusations". I've been very clear about my desire to SUPPORT real child abuse victims and I defy you to quote expressing a desire to discredit "mundane" accusations.

Once and for all, here are my real motivations for publicly confronting the BS of RA/mind control survivor claimants:

1)I fear that the persistence of RA/mind control claimant frauds and liars will create doubts in the minds of rational persons about the legitimacy of real abuse claimants, such as clergy abuse victims.

2)I believe that responsible citizens should speak out against racism, misogyny, homophobia, vigilantism and witchhunting behaviour, wherever & whenever they encounter it. I believe some RA survivor claimants very much want to instigate social panics, vigilantism and witchhunting.

3)I'm concerned about the propagation of NWO-illuminati mythologies. The only persons in our society who benefit from the spreading of these falsehoods are the Patriot Militias - who DEFINITELY want to instigate social panics, vigilantism, witchhunting and acts of terrorism. The militias and the RA claimant cultists are socially conjoined on many levels. The propagation of these mythologies by RA claimants, and their demands to have their "stories" accepted as fact by mainstream society pose a danger to every ordinary person (and their loved ones), because their "stories" ARE the Patriot's NWO-illuminati mythologies.

anonymous said:
"Kluft discusses events where he believed ritual abuse occurs. He also writes about receiving threats on the phone that he would be killed if he did not back off"

You've misrepresented Kluft again. He said he suspected his own PATIENTS of making the threatening phonecalls:

Kluft: "I confronted THE PATIENT I suspected was either making or instigating the calls. Although I got no admission or confirmation, I never received another threatening phonecall".

houwtity said...

OK. I like tha we are batting this thread back and forth btwn bball and SRA.

I looked up Pierce and Allen's stats and figuring the NBA to be more accepting than MLB where the HoF is concerned, both seem to be in, especially Pierce.

Both are native Californians, Pierce growing up in Inglewood, so that buys my vote. I'm a homer too.

Plus, Allen just led the Celts over the Magic, so you gotta favour the Celtics now. Howard was a no-show, and that probably had alot to do with the team defense of the Celtics.

My issue with Pierce and Allen is more to do with them being in the East and me being in the West. For many years the Eastern Conference was an afterthought. Even today, there better teams, younger teams, up and coming teams in the West.


Allen especially seems to have been helped by the 3 point line more than the average shooting guard, a rule that I would do away with, like the DH it changed the game away from its original meaning. Now you have zone defense and defensive three second violations.

Ah, the degradation we achieve in the obsession with more offense.

Always a defensive-minded player myslef.

Although lotsa people consider me highly offensive.

Go Suns!

socrates said...

Yes, nice win for the Celtics.

Donkeytale, you must read Doug's expose on the SMART conference. That guy Neil Brick comes from Blues' area, maybe the same town. You're probably also aware that Larouchites have been in the thick of things generating these idiotic, government sponsored, satanic, pedophile ring schticks.

I can't emphasise enough how much of a douchebag Jeff Wells of Rigorous Intuition is. I think I just found a sock puppet of his. He used to post as Minstrel Boy at Democratic Underground, until he was banned for voting yes in a racist poll.

On July 17th, 2005, a poster named UTUSN posted that GW Bush pardoned serial killer Henry Lee Lucas. He then linked to a Jeff Wells blog entry from a few months earlier titled Henry: Portrait of a Bush Supporter. Here's an excerpt.

As Governor of Texas, George W Bush notched 152 - count -em! - confirmed kills. A personal best, until 9/11.

Later that day UTUSN posted a retraction saying GW didn't pardon Lucas, that his sentence was commuted.

A poster named priller actually explained what the real story was about.

My understanding of this is much simpler:

(And btw, I have a friend who works for the TX corrections dept and handles death-row appeals)

Anyway, Lucas' sentence was commuted (not pardoned) because there were so many unresolved murder cases he had confessed to, prosecutors in TX and other states wanted him kept alive so he could testify about them. That's it.

Wells is the same dipshit who thinks Bonacchi winning a court case concerning the Franklin hoax is some kind of proof. He never mentions how it was a default judgment made, because the defendant never showed.

Now this is what also looks strange and gets me wondering about a potential Wells' sock puppet. The conspiracy theory freak made his correction thread at 10:38 p.m.. Jeff Wells showed up at 10:43 p.m. with the first response! He linked to his same bullshit article that UTUSN had linked to in the morning.

Of course the general gist then became about GW Bush being part of a satanic cult tied in with MK Ultra. That's the ticket.

There was this DU thread which covered a satanic panic story coming out of Louisiana. Of course the dumbasses were taking it all at face value, despite it having as many holes in it as a Jason Leopold Swiss cheese expose.

The real lowdown on the Ponchatoula, Louisiana satanic sex cult panic can be found here.

On the DU thread Wells as Minstrel Boy showed up and posted the following response to "They were members of a Christian church practicing devil-worship? WTF?"

It makes a pretty good cover and gives the perps access to children.

The crimes are different, but Bush is another who hides behind one religion while effectively practicing another.

This was one of Andy Stephenson's closest friends in the blogosphere. The guy is a hack who wrote one book about a decade ago. He published another a few years back which was basically a copy and paste of his dumbass blog entries over several years. I don't see how that chump generates any income. Why shouldn't anyone wonder if he gets paid to post disinfo on the internet?

bob said...

Ah, yes...the Jeff Wells enigma.

Wells attended Prairie Bible College (1978-1982), in Alberta Canada. Prairie Bible or "Three Hills" Bible as it is also known, is an extreme fundamentalist evangelical institution. No doubt, Wells was thoroughly indoctrinated into the pervasive corruption of modern society by Satan Hisself, therein.

As if that were not enough, Wells then went to The Institute for Christian Studies (1983-1987), in Toronto, which is "Reformist" fundamentalist evangelical. Reformed theology is generally considered synonymous with Calvinism. CALVINISM!

Remember those evangelical kids in my own college classes? Guess what - that was in Alberta too, and in the same time frame as Wells attending Prairie Bible, and Three Hills is about 200 km from where I grew up. If Wells wasn't another of those evangelical youths exposed to heaping helpings of Mike Warnke, et. al. - I'll eat this monitor.

So, my rigorous intuition is that Wells never overcame the paranoid indoctrination about pervasive satanic corruption of modern society, governments & institutions , from his youth. He may claim to have left fundamentalism, he may claim to be "on the Left" these days, but his comfort zone remains "paranoid fundamentalist" and preaching to others about satanic evil in the modern world.

Several RI posters have made statements recently in which they disavow adherence to NWO ideology.
Wells is not among them. And here's another odd thing - remember Professor Pan? Wasn't he a moderator on RI at one time? Here's a posting Prof Pan made on the EDUCATE YOURSELF.ORG site - the internet home of Patriot Militia ideologue and friend of Ted gunderson - Ken Adachi:

As for earning a living, here's a pathetic plea by Wells, circa 2005, for someone to give him a job:

"An appeal
Please believe me, I hate conforming to a blogger stereotype, but here's the deal: the magazine for which I'd written for nearly a dozen years folded last December. Apart from the odd freelance assignment, I haven't earned an income since. I'd been expecting that to end last Friday, when a new project was expected to launch. But, last Friday, I learned it had been postponed another five months. So that's dropped me, and my forbearing family, pregnant wife included, in it.

So if anyone has employment opportunities, freelance gigs, queries or suggestions, please drop me a line at the email address you can find on my profile. I'm versatile. I've interviewed Natalie Portman, fer the luva Mike. And I hate this"

My guess is, after his wife delivered she went to work and Wells has been a house-husband - but that's just speculation.

I don't know if I buy into the idea that Wells was ever genuinely "on the Left". I can't speak to his postings on DU, cause I never read them, but RI seems to have been more of a ploy to beg for money or employment than anything else. Perhaps someone "bought" him?

Anonymous said...

repost from other page

"I'll agree that "false memory proponents swung media opinion" and that they did so with facts, empirical research, and evidence."


It was done with harassment:
Confessions of a Whistle-Blower: Lessons Learned

Notes from a practice under siege: Harassment, defamation, and intimidation in the name of science

Silencing the Victim: The Politics of Discrediting Child Abuse Survivors

and media manipulation:
The foundation is an aggressive, well-financed p.r. machine adept at manipulating the press, harassing its critics, and mobilizing a diverse army

"impervious to new information"

No one is impervious to new information at survivor conferences or anywhere else.

Vicious attacks, misrepresenting survivor stories, research and name calling are not providing new information, but are only made to discredit survivors of child abuse.

Mesner appears to ignore all information contrary to his beliefs.

"McHugh is denigrated for defending paedophiles"


McHugh is critized for his lack of clinical experience and questioned in one article from a mainstream newspaper because he testifies on behalf of accused molesters.

"her (Loftus) "ethics" are questioned"

There have been allegations that she has violated research ethics published in journal articles.

The misapplication of her research to traumatic memory has also been questioned.

Questioning one's motives and one's research ethics is quite different than calling one names and insulting them, as Mesner does.

Calling people delusional is just more name calling and using personal attacks to discredit them is simply a propaganda technique to discredit their research.

"A search of SMART reveals articles about the Catholic Church insofar as they are used to expand the scope of a conspiracy theory that is meant to prove recovered memories, but there seems to be no action on SMART's part against the church itself, as they probably feel the Catholic Church has actually been infiltrated by satanists."

Totally wrong

The newsletter has a wide variety of articles from mainstream newspapers about the clergy abuse crisis from all over the world. No statement has ever been made by SMART on their website that the church is infiltrated. Another fabrication by Mesner.

"experts in the field"

Yet is Mesner an expert in the field. What is his educational background? Has he ever worked with a trauma victim? Or has he just interviewed a few people and read a few books.

"SMART really has nothing to do with Dissociative studies."


SMART provides a large number of resources on the field of dissociation and trauma at its website.

In regard to his article on the conference he attended, the SMART website has a rebuttal to his claims.

Anonymous said...

reply to additional comments

"The more people who know about this fraud, the better."

There is no "fraud." There is a cover up of child abuse crimes by those using intimidation and harassment against child abuse victims though.

Bob (Doug) : "Several people know who I am" "There are hundreds of internet postings with my legal name attached to them, on subjects related to this one."

Name one person in the child abuse field that know you. Show us one old internet posting from last year with your name on it.

"anonymous said:
"Bob misrepresents Kluft's opinion, picking out only those that back his own opinions"

Bob: Not at all.

Yet this is exactly what you did. Your original post did not mention that Kluft was a moderate on the ritual abuse issue. You cherry picked quotes that proved your point.

Bob : "I've been very clear about my desire to SUPPORT real child abuse victims"

Other than a few statements, we have no evidence of this.

Bob : "The militias and the RA claimant cultists are socially conjoined on many levels"

Most RA survivors of these crimes are not connected to the "militias" and most of the websites for survivors on the RA topic are not either.

Anonymous said...

I can understand some of your rationale for opposing allegations of ritual abuse/mind control. It is true that there are individuals associated with these allegations who are deliberately or naively perpetuating false or misleading information. However, there is also an abundance of empirical evidence in support of some allegations of ritual abuse/mind control. It appears to me that you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater by tarring all accounts with the same brush. Would it not be more reasoned position to assume that with so many reports of ritual abuse/mind control, some are likely founded in fact? Would it not also be reasonable to assume that individuals so victimized would have some confused accounts of their experiences, particularly if these experiences occurred in childhood? And regarding the expertise of such luminaries as Loftus and McHugh, the jury is out on them. There are likely as many detractors as there are proponents of these and other regularly cited "experts" on either side.

The area of trauma and dissociation is a relatively new area of investigation in the psychological community, although the relationship between trauma and significant psychological problems has been noted in the professional and other literature for centuries.

Every discipline experiences growth pains wherein unfiltered information is transmitted into the wider community without adequate verification. This does not mean that the information is completely meritless or without value. In fact, such premature or incomplete or misinterpreted disclosures may help shed light on the issue and encourage a climate where clarity can be achieved. It seems to me that fostering an environment that attacks the message and the messenger serves no purpose other than to perpetuate myths on both sides and further obscure the truth.

bob said...


I never said that anyone of any particular profession was aware of my identity, and of course I'm not going to reveal my identity as you have demanded - for the reasons that I stated.

Interesting articles...there certainly have been lunatics (and probably some con-artists too) associated with or claiming to be associated with FMSF. The same can be said about SRA proponents, of course. I'm not really concerned about FMSF or defending their credibility, but it seems obvious that if FMSF associated loonies/cons really discredit all of its members research and activism, then the SRA associated loonies/cons must discredit all SRA claimants, advocates and therapists - right?

When I and my networking associates started our campaigns to expose fraudulent SRA claimants, we faced the same problems you have described - SRA proponents had well-organized & well-financed organizations with professional media manipulators, not to mention Ministries with 10's of millions in annual incomes. Some of us experienced harassment, intimidation, threats...just as you have described.

The reversal of media attitudes toward SRA claims was not a result of FMSF "bullying" in any case. It resulted from the fact that various media had been burned by frauds, had been embarrassed and made fools out of when SRA claimants they took at face value were exposed as frauds. Such as Ruth Bailey and "Lauren Stratford". These frauds were not exposed by FMSF, but by very ordinary people many of them devout Christians who were concerned about con-artists exploiting their communities.

It doesn't matter how many RA claimants/advocates are personally connected to the militias, since the existence of all the ones who don't have such connections are being exploited by those that do. You could give me hope, however, by personally condemning NWO and Illuminati mythologies as hoaxes & lies - right here, right now...

Surely you can understand, on a personal level, my contention that fraudulent RA/mind-control claims destroy the hope of legal or social justice for real abuse victims, and therefore have to be exposed and dealt with?

Doug Mesner said...

What?? No mention of how the ISSTD dis-owned SMART? No defense of Neil Brick? Has Brick worked with trauma at all? And I've covered that SMART "rebuttal" ad nauseum. It's not even a rebuttal. It's a long list of debunked articles by discredited psychiatrists, and even they will have nothing to do with SMART. An interesting thing about the "rebuttal" is that it flatly lies when it disowns statements made in SMART's presentations. Why is this? Embarrassment? Recognition that the claims made by SMART are utterly absurd and indefensible?
"McHugh is critized for his lack of clinical experience and questioned in one article from a mainstream newspaper because he testified on behalf of accused molesters." McHugh who was head of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins and worked directly with trauma and those who were diagnosed DID. He has a lack of clinical experience? Compared to who? Neil Brick? Hilarious. Criticised for defending accused child molesters? That's what I'm saying, if your limited reading comprehension can grasp it: he's not defending the molestation of children or people who believes are actually molesters. You don't understand the issues here at all, do you?
"Yet is Mesner an expert in the field. What is his educational background? Has he ever worked with a trauma victim?" Turns out I'm much more educated than Brick on the topic, but even if I weren't, what would it matter? If I'm acting as the journalist in this case I'm not required to have a psychiatric residency. I just reported the facts about SMART, and SMART went all to pieces following its publication. What is Neil Brick's expertise? Why does his own employer tell us that his work has nothing to do with the delusional fantasies he puts forward through SMART?
"The newsletter has a wide variety of articles from mainstream newspapers about the clergy abuse crisis from all over the world." Again, the point goes entirely over your head.
And when I call Brick "delusional", it's not mere name calling. I believe he truly is delusional as a matter of fact.
"SMART provides a large number of resources on the field of dissociation and trauma at its website. " Yes, but my point is, why do those resources disown SMART? Let me answer that for you: because SMART is clearly a group of delusional conspiracy theorists, and even sane people who believe in dissociative amnesia recognise that.

Doug Mesner said...

Brick - you say to Bob:
"Your original post did not mention that Kluft was a moderate on the ritual abuse issue. You cherry picked quotes that proved your point."
What do you take it to mean that Kluft "was a moderate on the ritual abuse issue"? You most certainly are not. Bob "cherry-picked" while you cited the anecdote of the threatening calls without even mentioning that Kluft concluded one of his own patients were making the calls, apparently to bolster their SRA story? That tells me one of 2 things: either you didn't know the whole Kluft story, which would mean you got the tale from material pre-dating his writing of it, which would have been a Geraldo TV special, or something similar. This would mean you had not actually read Kluft's material. The other option is that you were willfully misrepresenting the material - "cherry-picking", if you will. Which was it?

Doug Mesner said...

By the way, fellows, here's the line-up for this year's SMART conference. Read some of the topics and you'll see what an academic series of lecturers this will surely be:
(and here I feel I must add another token ironic comment regarding an "anonymous" complaining about not knowing Bob's identity)

Doug Mesner said...

"Every discipline experiences growth pains wherein unfiltered information is transmitted into the wider community without adequate verification. This does not mean that the information is completely meritless or without value. In fact, such premature or incomplete or misinterpreted disclosures may help shed light on the issue and encourage a climate where clarity can be achieved. It seems to me that fostering an environment that attacks the message and the messenger serves no purpose other than to perpetuate myths on both sides and further obscure the truth."
I respect the sentiment here. Unfortunately, I find it disingenuous when it comes from somebody who can not even admit that Stratford's 'Satan's Underground' was bunk. And no, the prevalence of a story is not evidence for it. We could easily say that because witch-hunts were so wide-spread, the existence of witches is therefore proven - but then we'd just be perpetuating witch-hunts, wouldn't we? there are countless examples in which masses of people have been horribly wrong, and unfortunately, anecdote and eye-witness testimony don't count as "evidence". They are just too unreliable. Corroborative facts are always needed, especially when somebody's life, freedom, and family is at stake. I hope you can try to understand that.

Doug Mesner said...

"I can understand some of your rationale for opposing allegations of ritual abuse/mind control. It is true that there are individuals associated with these allegations who are deliberately or naively perpetuating false or misleading information."
Seriously, Neil, when you write something like this I almost feel like I could talk to you, and almost begin to feel bad for you. Problem is, you don't seem to filter any of the info you put out to your base. You can't even look at the facts surrounding the debunking of Michelle Remembers or Satan's Underground. Do you really think that's helpful to people who come to SMART?

Anonymous said...

Bob, do you have a source for Wells' educational background? Ever hear any rumors of Wells being somehow involved with Bill "Behold a Pale Horse" Cooper? How about other articles or screenplays by him as he has claimed to have written? Wife is easy to Google...does she have a fundy background? How does all that jive with his background at Frank? Just curious for your insights.

For the record, "Minstrel Boy" probably does not count as a "sock puppet" as I don't think he hid the fact that he posted under that name and made a clear connection to his blog when he started it. The racist poll part was true, though, not sure what that was about, he claimed he was making a point about the stupidity of the poll.


Someone not allowed to post here anymore, likely due to his lack of basketball knowledge.

socrates said...

Thanks Doug and Bob for your efforts.

First to Doug- I don't think that's Neil Brick. My guess is it's Pepinsky. That last post he made sounded academic.

I don't think there's much room for debate between you guys. Like you pointed out, anonymous looks at the facts in a skewed manner. That's not the biggest problem. He ignores too many facts. He is promoting a belief system. There is zero proof of satanic ritual abuse. In short, the deluded have nowhere to run nor hide. It's a big bluff. Your expose on the SMART Conference said it all. It's over. Game. Set. Match.

Going over this is akin to doing the same with Orson Welles' War of the Worlds. Of course, the satanic panic caused a lot of damage. War of the Worlds was merely an example of the psychology of hysteria.

The problem remains, when the deluded start to make inroads into mainstream blogs. It's been shown how this crap got played out at Democratic Underground. It hit its apex with the Jeff Gannon is Johnny Gosch hoax.

I sincerely believe the internet satanic panic has been thoroughly toasted. It is very satisfying to see the whole truth emerge.

The remaining problem lies in how to get this info into the real world. Mentally ill people are not getting the help they need. They are being mind raped. I appreciate your angle at trying to get at the root of the problem, the quack therapists like Colin Ross and Lowell Routley.

People suck. The consolation prize is that no one but the very deluded truly gives a shit about Neil Brick. I actually feel sorry for him. He's obviously batshit insane. So has he ever explained when, by whom, and where he was trained as a mind controlled assassin? One idea I have is what if someone could get through to Roseanne? She could blow the lid on this. Maybe Rick Ross (no relation) could deprogram her, and Colin Ross could be brought to justice. I'd like to see those shrinks go to prison. I don't care if it's minimum security, and they get counseling, as there is the distinct possiblity they believe the crap they spew in pursuit of money. Some people are evil. Some are deluded. There is a difference.

And that's where I'm headed with my next post. I was fascinated by Bob's apparent insider info on Jeff Wells.

socrates said...

Bob, thank you very much for that info on Jeff Wells. I am curious where you got it. That's the kind of stuff I went looking for but never found.

So now I have my answer. Jeff Wells is not a disinfo writer. He is deluded misinfo.

The house husband theory makes sense. Perhaps he is a lefty in that he is not a rich man. It's not like these websites cost a fortune to run. This one, for example, is free. He might be shelling out a few hundred bucks a year tops for bandwidth. I could see him getting enough donations to cover that. Maybe some of the brainwashed "victims" have money and are getting soaked.

Jeff Wells could be the poor man's Brett Kimberlin. They find a niche market comprised of gullible and/or insane people with cash flow. It's not that they are true lefties, but that they could smell which way the wind was blowing. They caught the Bush as the devil wave and rode it for what it was worth.

Some are easier to hypothesize as being proverbial disinfo agents. Hal Turner for one. There's Larry Johnson. If he's not a psyop writer, I don't know who is.

There are clearly political operatives all over the internet. Those are 99% easier to prove. DFQ got the job done in a big way exposing the ones manipulating the Daily Kos.

That's too bad about Professor Pan. There were a few people who used to post at Rigorous Intuition who made good sense. Do you remember The Kult Leader or something? I think he got banned. I hope he didn't write anything embarassing that I missed. I liked some of his posts.

That dreamsend dude also made some good ones. But I don't know. It's tough to tell who is deluded from who might receive a paycheck to write bullshit and spread confusion. It's hard to believe anyone would actually believe that Duncan and Blake faked their deaths. I find it hard to think he's sincere in his kookiness.

Mike Rivero reeks of being a disinfo agent. Same with Tinoire. Same with the Larouche crowd.

There's definitely something very fishy about the Educate Yourself and News Making News websites. That's obvious to anyone aware of them.

Perhaps it can be said that my main schtick over the years (since 2006) has been about exposing internet fakes. I think the sophisticated attacks on myself are a form of circumstantial proof that I was hitting the baseball with the sweet part of the bat.

I feel good about having made the transition from getting beat on to being able to delve into stuff like this. It's discouraging that the internet appears to be a deadend. However, to repeat myself, which I admit I do at times, there is something to be said about pockets of awareness. I think they are there. I think we have provided a service. I think we have done the best we can, and since the readers decide, the bad guys are on the ropes.

A historic internet troll named MattyJack has recently declared that the old trolls have perished. I agree, though I don't think he knew which trolls he was talking about. The true trolls that are now dead to the internet are those such as Brett Kimberlin, Brad Friedman, Alexandrovna, Wells, Fintan Dunne, Larry Johnson, Wayne Madsen, the Daily Kos and Democratic Underground, et al. Guys like Alex Jones and Mike Rivero also don't have much left of a shelf life imho.

socrates said...

I never said Minstrel Boy was a sock puppet. I was thinking maybe UTUSN might be one. It could have been a coincidence. One person we know for sure who uses sock puppets is Jason Leopold.

I too would like to know where Bob got his info on Jeff Wells. I hope it's true. I'd like to think someone is deluded rather than being an outright cheater.

I do find it strange why someone would mention a rumour that Jeff Wells was involved with Bill Cooper. It sounds like a fabricated rumour heard for the first time here. There isn't enough time in the day to worry about secondary convolution. One of the persons I've been foolishly accused of being is Jay Reynolds, someone who used to work side by side with Cooper.

For what it's worth, I don't think Cooper was a disinfo agent. I think he was of the batshit insane, right wing, conspiracy freak variety.

No one's banned. I've shifted away from that approach, after donkeytale advised me to do so. There are simple rules. Nothing illegal. Nothing outing regular guys. No troll spam, by which I mean don't copy and paste the same posts more than necessary. I don't mind it having been done above, since those originated in archived threads not as visible. I also expect to not be cyberstalked on my own blog. Anything like that I feel I have the right to delete. I did speak to a local policeman and shared my story with him. The alias of the person saying I'm Jay Reynolds among other names has been reported. I think that person has been faking insanity. I believe he is a proverbial disinfo agent. He is tied to an internet grifter named Will Thomas and something called the Deep Sky hoax. That's covered at my forum.

socrates said...

I consider myself a regular guy. There is nothing on the internet that pertains to my real life, except for things I have shared. Fake socrates were created. Cyberstalking did take place. Blogs have been created with the sole purpose of making me look bad.

Brad Friedman of BradBlog gave the cyberstalker my personal info. I never revealed it myself. In the Old West, a guy like Friedman would be dead. He's very lucky I'm non-violent.

It was bad enough having my username raked over the coals. Brad took such unethical behaviour to a new level. It's not my fault he has been involved in so many twisted, easily proven hoaxes. It's not my fault his business partner is a convicted bomber, drug smuggler, and perjuror. Few realise that Brett Kimberlin was the prime suspect in the murder of Julia Scyphers. He was suspected of having had an improper relationship with her 11 year old granddaughter. Julia may have been onto that and the other bad stuff he was into. The limited in staff Speedway Police Dept. thought Kimberlin had set the bombs in order to derail the murder investigation. The profound dirt on Kimberlin isn't as well-known as it could be, because the info on that is mostly from before the internet took off. But that doesn't mean a lot of people aren't aware of Kimberlin's true nature and past activities.

Brad Friedman will never result to too much. If he ever somehow rises to more mainstream success than being a hack blogger, his skeletons in the closet will be readily available.

bob said...

Ummm...guys? That was just a google search, nothing "insider" about it other than understanding Canadian geography. To get to the info you want, google "jeff wells prairie bible" - it's the "classmates" site, should come up in first spot.

Socrates - I've been friendly with Dream's End in the past. I think he's sincere, but this is your cyber-crib dude so your opinion/wishes should prevail.

socrates said...

Nice find, Bob. People can be sure it's him too, because he put up a photo of himself.

This was the info of him I was missing. So he was at Prairie Bible College (1978-1982) and the Institute for Christian Studies (1983-1987). That was after graduating High School in 1978. Wow. I'm curious why he never mentioned this.

From a quick look at the ICS, I can see how he was influenced and ended up more liberal than right wing. I read at Wikipedia [/embarrassed] it modeled itself somewhat after the Frankfurt School. Here's some proof of that. The wiki entry also says it has a tendency of promoting activism. In short, it does have evangelical ties, but we're not talking Jerry Falwell's Liberty University.

You can say what you want about dreamsend. I'd rather avoid him. Not only do I find his Theresa Duncan schtick utterly ridiculous, a while back someone was impersonating me at some backwash website, and he actually wouldn't take me at my word that I don't have sock puppets. The guy appears to be a convolution magnet, and I have better things to do than deal with that.

I guess I am in a Ma and Pa Kettle Pot situaltion, since a lot of convolution has also swirled around myself. But I think the major difference between us is I haven't created it. I don't go looking for convolution, at least anymore, yet it tends to find me. Post whatever you want to. I try my best to evolve with blogging, to learn from my mistakes. My big burst of blogging is actually complete. It is what it is. I'm just going to go with the basic rules I mentioned above.

Anonymous said...

I agree with socrates. Anyone who attracts that much internet convoltion deserves what he gets.

Now can we get back to the basketball discussion please? This SRA stuff is really getting us off topic.

Anonymous said...

repost from other page

Mesner misrepresents arguments to his own advantage, changing and adding to the truth to attack others he disagrees with.

"dis-owned SMART?"

No one disowned anyone. Mesner claims a link was deleted and an organization stated they are not connected to another one. This is the use of exaggeration to discredit people Mesner disagrees with.

"I've covered that SMART "rebuttal" ad nauseum. It's not even a rebuttal. It's a long list of debunked articles by discredited psychiatrists."

The rebuttal (
mentions websites that list peer reviewed journal articles.
There are no lies in the rebuttal. However Mesner in his articles on the conference put words in people's mouths and took statements out of context to discredit conference speakers. This is another example of how Mesner misrepresents an argument to his own advantage.

Reader's can decide for themselves about what is written about McHugh at

from a scientific journal article there:
"McHugh has made it clear that other than an occasional consultation, he has very little actual clinical experience with the ongoing treatment of MPD/DID patients and is generally unfamiliar with both the clinical features of MPD/DID and with what usually occurs in their treatment."

The critique on McHugh is from the article "Dubious choice for resolving church scandal"
The critique questions whether he should be on a lay council dealing with the church scandal. Mesner misrepresents the context of where the critique is coming from above.

"Turns out I'm much more educated than Brick on the topic."
Really. List your educational and clinical experience. And yes it does matter, since you are claiming to be knowledgeable in what you write and criticizing others that work in the field.

"If I'm acting as the journalist in this case I'm not required to have a psychiatric residency. I just reported the facts about SMART, and SMART went all to pieces following its publication."

But you are required to know what you write about, since you claim to be critiquing others. You don't report facts, you misrepresent what people state, spin it to attack them and then call them names, personally attack and harass them.

And SMART and the entire ritual abuse movement is much stronger since you wrote your article. People are so shocked by your vicious attacks, they side with those you write about and support them much more.

"delusional" it's not mere name calling.

But it is. If you agreed with the fact that ritual abuse exists, then you would not call anyone delusional. You would state they are right. The fact is that you use repeated insults against your ideological opponents shows this is just more name calling on your part, in an attempt to discredit them.

Sane people realize that Mesner's attacks and insults are not part of any sort of "debunking" or "skeptical analysis" but are agenda driven attacks to discredit his opponents using propaganda techniques.

Anonymous said...

"The reversal of media attitudes toward SRA claims was not a result of FMS "bullying" in any case."

You missed this link -
U-Turn on Memory Lane
"The foundation is an aggressive, well-financed p.r. machine adept at manipulating the press, harassing its critics, and mobilizing a diverse army."
This link disproves your statements.

"my contention that fraudulent RA/mind-control claims destroy the hope of legal or social justice for real abuse victims"

And the attacks on true survivors of ritual abuse and mind control claims destroy the hope of legal or social justice for real abuse victims as well.

"Corroborative facts are always needed, especially when somebody's life, freedom, and family is at stake."

Yes, but there were many criminal convictions for ritual abuse crimes, many with physical evidence.

"I can understand some of your rationale for opposing allegations of ritual abuse/mind control. It is true that there are individuals associated with these allegations who are deliberately or naively perpetuating false or misleading information."

It is obvious that a different person wrote this. Mesner does not hear any arguments except those that he wants to hear. And then accuses others of not hearing different opinions.

Doug Mesner said...

"No one disowned anyone."
Wrong. The ISSTD dis-owned SMART as an irrational organisation that perpetuates delusion.
"There are no lies in the rebuttal."
Wrong. Neil Brick lies when he says I "put words in" other's mouths and mis-represented the conference. The conference was accurately reported upon. If it wasn't, sue me. Actually, your claiming that I lied when I did not constitutes defamation. Maybe that's why you're "anonymous" here. Afraid to stand by your words aren't you? Just as you refuse to elaborate on your tale regarding personal masonic mind-control, isn't it? Why is that?
"[McHugh] has very little actual clinical experience with the ongoing treatment of MPD/DID". That's because he found that once they stopped being encouraged to have DID, they seized having it. Read about it, you might learn something.
"List your educational and clinical experience." List yours. Explain why Katherine Wilson at BHN says your work has nothing to do with what you promote through SMART.
"But you are required to know what you write about." And I do. I wish you knew what you hold conferences about.
"SMART and the entire ritual abuse movement is much stronger since you wrote your article". And that line-up was the best you could for your upcoming conference?
"If you agreed with the fact that ritual abuse exists, then you would not call anyone delusional." True. But they don't, and you are delusional.

Doug Mesner said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Doug Mesner said...

That part's particularly hilarious:
"People are so shocked by your vicious attacks, they side with those you write about and support them much more."
If there are people who are so offended by my tone that they decide they will believe patently absurd, thoroughly debunked claims of satanic conspiracy after reading it... those are the kind of people that SMART is for. You can have them.
I am getting tired, though, of being told I misrepresent your delusions. Please, tell us all about your own experiences as a brain-washed masonic assassin, why don't you? Why do consistently fail to do that? I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

Doug Mesner said...

(Lot of type-os tonight. Sorry. I was out late at the masonic lodge for an MK-ULTRA meeting where we were discussing the new features on our hand-held electromagnetic resonance neural re-sequencers. Elaborate mind-control devices. I'm no Neil Brick when it comes to brain science, but I think I understood most of what Satan was telling us tonight.)

socrates said...

Yep, that's probably that mentally deranged person named Neil Brick. There was one post where the person sounded academic and looking for fair and balanced.

Anyone even going near supporting Neil Brick is just asking to be sent to the asylum.

Speak of the Devil
Victimized by satanic cults and the CIA or just plain crazy? A look at the recent SMART conference at Windsor Locks

Hartford Advocate/September 4, 2003
By Patrick Rucker (excerpts)

"Sharing like this is the best way to rid ourselves of these toxic memories," says SMART conference organizer, Neil Brick. "There are thousands more survivors out there who have yet to learn what they have been through." ...

Neil Brick, himself an alleged survivor of ritual abuse, says his self-discovery of past lives began about 10 years ago during a troubled part of his life. "My whole life was very dysfunctional," Brick says. "I was always tense, always holding my emotions in very tightly. I had a lot of life issues -- could not hold a job, had a failed marriage, drinking."

Only after straightening his life out and seeking psychological help did he become aware of his past life. Short in stature, Brick says that "the government kept me small so that I could easily fit through ducts and crawlspaces when I was on missions."

He claims to have recurring memories of his part in assassination missions behind the Iron Curtain. Estranged from his family, Brick says he blames his parents and others for allowing his abuse.

"I have not been in touch with my family for quite a while," Brick says. "My belief is that my family is still in the group, possibly for financial reasons."

Because ritual abuse has been so widely discredited, Loftus says, accusers like Brick are less of a menace to society. Still, she says most have destroyed their family networks and are perpetuating an unhealthy mental state.

"They get together in these groups, reinforce each other, ooze sympathy and empathy, give each other a sense of importance," Loftus says. "In the end, they stay unwell and never get help."

I was going to call that funny excerpts, but the sweet Ms. Loftus nails it. Neil's a sick f*ck who never got the help he needed. The true a**holes are those therapists who prop these pitiful fools up. Like Routley and Colin Ross. If Neil was my relative, I'd hunt those kinds of fockers down and knock the shit out of them. They are lucky Neil isn't my brother and they I am non-violent!

Here's more insanity from Neil:

Survivors have written books recently on ra/mc mk-ultra as well. Carol Rutz’ book walks us through her horrifying journey of experimentation and training by her CIA torturers beginning at the age of four as part of the government sanctioned Bluebird/Artichoke and MKULTRA Projects. Using electroshock, drugs, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and insidious trauma, our government performs Mind Control experiments on her and other innocent children. The objective is creation of a Manchurian Candidate-a sleeper assassin-as well as instilling skills in ESP and remote viewing.

Neil claims there are thousands of victims out there who have yet to learn what they have been through. That says it all.

By the way, I saw The Manchurian Candidate the other day. Not a bad flick. Where's Frank Sinatra when you need him?

Hey Doug, maybe you could try to find Neil's family. Maybe if he could be shown they are normal folks, it could help him recover. Maybe Neil can be deprogrammed. There's definitely a story here. Or maybe someone can get through to Roseanne. If she ever found out how she was getting played by Colin Ross, there'd be hell to pay. Pun intended!

bob said...

anonymous brick,

I didn't miss any of your links/articles, and the one you cite does not disprove anything I've said.

You only have paranoid fantasies about what was going on, on the debunking side of the Satanic Panic, whereas I know the facts because I WAS THERE - you fool - I was involved in it. The process of debunking and exposing SRA frauds was going on for years before there was any FMSF.

Doug Mesner said...

"maybe you could try to find Neil's family. Maybe if he could be shown they are normal folks, it could help him recover."
See - this is the thing that disgusts me about Brick: his delusional state seems entirely self-imposed, a failure of character more than disease of the brain. If Brick came on here talking about his life as a masonic assassin, babbling about satanic murderers, then I might feel sorry for him as somebody who is seriously distressed and doesn't have the ability to distinguish fact from reality. But that's not what we see. Instead, we see a guy who refuses to acknowledge his personal tale and tries to pretend he is an expert in the field of dissociation and trauma. It's funny that he should question anybody's credentials. His own employer states that Brick's job has nothing to do with his SMART "work". Apparently, Brick knows how asinine his bullshit stories are. Why else would he deny them? Why else would he say that I "misrepresented" and took it "out of context"? I even took the quote from "Royal" regarding quantum portals and demonic harmonics off his own website, yet he'll claim I misrepresent it. Brick refuses to look at new information and facts. To him, any reply that he feels supports his cause is sufficient rebuttal. And that might be why he keeps posting here, despite looking the fool each time. As he posted elsewhere, despite the fact that Michelle Remembers was thoroughly debunked, the book's own publisher said that they had acted responsibly and attempted to verify items of the story. That's good enough for Brick! He's still at liberty to believe it, and ignore the facts of the debunking. This is just a weakness of character and will. An astounding failure of responsible reasoning.

socrates said...

I agree with Doug about Brick and the subject of compassion. It's difficult to have much for him. He might not be a menace to society as a whole, but he certainly is one to mentally ill people across the country he and his associates are attempting to manipulate.

I too would like to hear Neil's specific story. When did he "recover" his memories? Who was his therapist? What are the details of his alleged manchurian candidate styled activities?

The Manchurian Candidate was a movie. MK-Ultra was real and disgusting, but my take is that it was mostly about an attempt to create a truth serum.

This all goes well beyond any classic debate formula. We are not debating the existence of God or free will, abortion, or the death penalty.

So what are you afraid of anonymous? Are you denying you're Neil Brick? If you're not Neil, what's your dog in the hunt? Everyone else here has explained how they got into this topic. Why don't you?

If you are Neil Brick, why don't you ever share specific details of your alleged participation in MK-Ultra "sleeper assassin" activities?

bob said...

anonymous who is not neil said:
"However, there is also an abundance of empirical evidence in support of some allegations of ritual abuse/mind control".

Repeating such statements a million times will never make them objectively factual, but does have the potential to make them a concensus reality. Most ritual abuse claimants/advocates don't really care if they are statements of verifiable fact or not - they just want them to become concensus reality.

One of the most preposterous examples of alleged "empirical evidence" for ritual abuse, is the "Extreme Abuse Survivor's Survey". I've studied it quite thoroughly, in my copy of "Ritual Abuse in the 21st century". There's nothing wrong with the mechanics of the survey, but the results are completely meaningless!

1471 persons responded, generating lots of supposed data about ritual abuse, but the authors themselves admit they have no way to verify if even ONE of the respondents actually experienced what they claim to have experienced! Would over 1400 people lie in a survey? ABSOLUTELY! In Australia more than 70,000 people declared themselves members of the Jedi order in the 2001 census. Over 53,000 people listed themselves as Jedi in New Zealand's 2001 census. In the Canada 2006 Census, some 55,000 people reported their religion as Jedi. How many of those persons are actually members of a Jedi religion? ZERO. They all intentionally LIED, and in official census surveys to boot!

There are 77 Canadian CIA mind control experiment survivors, whose victimization is documented, but ZERO of them are also ritual abuse claimants. There are many other CIA mind control claimants, alleging they were also ritual abuse victims, but ZERO of those persons have even a scrap of documentation.

bob said...

(part 2)

anonymous who is not neil said:
"Would it not be more reasoned position to assume that with so many reports of ritual abuse/mind control, some are likely founded in fact?"

Why would you assume anything was "founded in fact", no matter how many times it was repeated, if there is no proof that it is founded in fact? I should assume that alien abduction is founded in fact, just because oodles of people have "reported" it? There are thousands of people around the world who claim that the Jews secretly control all banking & finance - do you assume that to be founded in fact?

anonymous who is not neil said:
"The area of trauma and dissociation is a relatively new area of investigation in the psychological community..."

Bruce Perry is the ultimate childhood traumatologist, and he is NOT a ritual abuse true believer. Shame on ALL of you for attempting to exploit the very real neurological effects of childhood trauma, to promote your own agendas.

Why can't I just be open-minded and agree to accept that ritual abuse might be real even if no one can prove it? Because, THIS is what you are asking me to embrace as concensus reality:

"Former NWO Illuminati supporter and programmer SVALI, exposed the satanist paramilitary and how they trained their own to fight for the NEW WORLD ORDER and to fight all who oppose it...In her reports, she outlined the truth about the Illuminati/satanist PARAMILITARY and their covert rugged training camps, preparing their people to help seize America under MARTIAL LAW for the NWO, and to oppose the CHRISTIANS and all other NWO resistance.
CISCO WHEELER, a person who has come out to expose this NWO darkness after being in it for many years, told me...Her father was a military satanist and working for the NWO and forced her into it as well. She came out at the age of 16 to become a born again Christian. She told me,

"I was participating in a satanic human sacrifice ritual in Oregon, watching as they tortured a Christian man they had abducted, to death. They were cutting out his eyes...but instead of screaming in pain, this man was PRAYING IN TONGUES and it was evident that the power of God was upon him! I instantly prayed inside me as I watched, 'Jesus if you are stronger than satan, I want YOU now in my life!' I become a Christian immediately after this experience..." Cisco come out to write many articles exposing the NWO she used to be a part of.

I asked Cisco about their knowledge of martial law and what they had planned to do to Christians they would help arrest under it. She replied, "We satanists in Oregon sat around planning what we would do to the Christians once they started arresting them under martial law, and we satanists helped the authorities. We decided we would torture them for 13 days before finally sacrificing them...."

bob said...

Report on 1996 mind-control/ritual abuse conference exposed the domination of this "field" by militia sympathizers and illuminati mythology adherents:

Neil Brick's "smartnews" has been a subscriber to the CTRL mailist since at least 2000. Kris Millegan, CTRL list owner and trineday publisher is a NWO ideology fanatic and supporter of patriot militia leaders such as Bo Gritz. Ritual Abuse therapist Ellen Lacter is a CTRL subscriber and member of American Patriot Friends Network. Nick Bryant's book "Franklin Scandal" published by Kris Millegan, Bryant is friends with primary Franklin case source & militia consigliere John DeCamp, Ellen Lacter hangs out on "Franklin Scandal" site forum, etc.

Doug Mesner said...

Glad you mention the "Extreme Abuse" survey, Bob. Just as SMART serves as an illustrative case to show how recovered memories can be demonstrably false and fabricated delusions (thus calling into question the wisdom of Recovered Memory Therapy), the Extreme Abuse Survey is also illustrative of problematic surveys that are too often used as "evidence" of a phenomena. The field of DID research is rife with such "studies", and the therapists who execute these studies seem to either not know what constitutes evidence in science, or are willfully mis-representing their cases. I'll quote from a study of one of my favourites:

"Brown et al7pp609-610 describe a finding by Dollinger13 that “two of the 38 children studied after watching lightning strike and kill a playmate had no memory of the event.” However, Brown et al failed to mention that both amnesic children had also been struck by side flashes from the main lightning bolt, knocked unconscious, and nearly killed. The other children present during the disaster who were not struck by lightning remembered the event all too well."

Though not a survey, that one is a particularly blatant example of scientific irresponsibility, and shows to what lengths the RMT crowd will go to try and provide justification to their position.
SMART is inadvertently a great resource for demonstrating how RMT leads to madness. I looked up one of the speakers for the upcoming conference, Suzie Burke. In an excerpt from her book, she writes of her own memory recovery process. She's talking to her therapist and says: "[...]My health is all over the map and I’m gaining weight again. This makes no sense to me, with all my nausea and vomiting. You’d think that I’d be as skinny as a rail.”
[Her therapist replies:]
“This sounds to me as if an earlier part of you is trying to communicate with you, Suzie [...]”
No shit? Such symptoms could only indicate repressed memories of "extreme abuse"?
Read the excerpt. It's a clear study of extreme quackery.

socrates said...

I liked that one survey of thousands of therapists, where it turned out 16 quacks were responsible for this specific manifestation of the satanic panic.

Bob, thanks for that Evan Harrington link on a mind control conference. Newbies and fence-sitters should check it out. It's kind of a primer for this topic. Right woos left is mentioned. We're basically not picking lint out of our belly buttons here. Something bad is going on, of the stupid crazy variety. Picture nutty, evangelical therapists teaming up with neonazi conspiracy theory. That's it in a nutshell.

I went googling for one thing yet found another. Check out this tinfoiltainment excerpt:


You shall hear Peter describe how Mengele, using the pseudonym, Dr. Felix Polk, programmed Peter to kidnap children in the San Francisco Bay Area. Then they were used in child porn at Gene Phillips, Sr. & Jr.’s Marin County, California home, just north of the Golden Gate Bridge, before they were taken to Sonoma County and used in human sacrifices. (For decades, the Phillips have traveled America & been involved in judging youth tennis matches. Great way to be around children & pick your next victims, without being child porn, sex abuse, Satanism & murder suspects?)

It doesn't get any fruit loopier than that.

I might try to see if there are other sources saying Felix Polk was really Josef Mengele. The conspiracy theory wingnuts need to come up with a better schtick. The Nazis as Jews doesn't wash.

I think there are tidbits like this in which it'd be nice to figure out the origin of that part of the hoax. What the fock was up with Corydon Hammond and his Dr. Green or Greenbaum malarkey? Wtf is up with someone saying Felix Polk was a mad doctor brought over to manage the fictitious, govt. sponsored, satanic ritual network?

Doug, I said this before, but here it is again. Roseanne could be the key. She can't be so focked up not to be able to be reasoned with. If she brought a lawsuit against Colin Ross, that would force writers like Carol Pogash to cover stories like these beyond a superficial level.

Susan Polk should not be in prison. She should be found innocent by reason of insanity. If she can regain her mental health, she should be allowed her freedom. That couldn't be more obvious. I mention this case, because it was a high profile one, just like McMartin.

I don't know what more we can do. One thing I am sure of; Mentally ill folks like Neil and his associates are not hurting anyone but themselves and the newbies they manipulate. Though they might be contributing to a general rise in conspiracy freak outlooks.

Finally, in Bob's link the writer spoke of how top wingnuts appreciate "liberal" voices promoting their insanity. He said, to paraphrase, fake lefties wooed by righties are profoundly more influential than any of the schlock pumped out by Carto or Larouche publications.

That pretty much explains what a lot of my blogging has been about. I despise fake lefties like Andy Stephenson, Larry Johnson, Brad Friedman, Tinoire, and Jeff Wells. It's easy to see that people like Alex Jones and Michael Rivero are utter douchebags. The other people may be all washed up in regards to influencing the zeitgeist. Back in the day they surely held some sway.

Anonymous said...

repost from other page

"dis-owned SMART as an irrational organisation"
No one ever stated this. This is a total misinterpretation of what occurred. A link was deleted and an organization stated they are not connected to another one. The above statement is a misinterpretation used to falsely discredit another group.

The conference was not accurately reported on. The so-called report picks and chooses a few statements from speakers at the conference, ignores any information that backs up the stories of the presenters and ridicules those that presented there. It is an extremely unbalanced and one sided report of the conference.

Are you afraid to say who you really are? People from the conference state "Mesner" is an alias. Tell us your name.

If McHugh "has very little actual clinical experience with the ongoing treatment of MPD/DID" then how could he know that anyone is being encouraged to have DID.

No one encourages anyone to have DID. There is zero evidence from legitimate scientific sources this occurs. DID is in the DSM-IV-TR. It is a legitimate diagnosis and is caused by extreme repeated trauma.

"List yours."
I asked first. List your educational and clinical experience.

Workplaces normally state that the activities of their employees outside of the workplace on their own time are their own business and are unrelated to their jobs. This is standard practice.

Looking at the conference line up and comparing it to other years, it appears to be similar to the line up from most of the other conferences.

To Mesner:
You agree that you call people "delusional" because they disagree with you. This is name calling, a propaganda technique used to falsely discredit one the other person disagrees with.

Anonymous said...

"If there are people who are so offended by my tone"

Most are offended by rudeness, personal attacks, insults and name calling. This type of behavior discredits the user of it and makes people realize that there is either a problem with the writer and/or the writer has an agenda to either hurt or attack others. It certainly does not help one's argument.

Bob's first post in this blog was on February 24, 2010 He mysteriously appears eight days after Mesner does. He has the same opinions as Mesner, but comes up with a different bio.

"The process of debunking and exposing SRA frauds was going on for years before there was any FMSF."

Not really. The FMSF was founded in the early 1990's. During the 1980's there were a few cases that were debated.

One of the major figures in the 1980's "debunking and exposing" that later was a co-founder of the FMS was Ralph Underwager.

Here's a famous quote from Underwager:
Interview in Amsterdam in June 1991 by “Paidika,” Editor-in-Chief, Joseph Geraci.
PAIDIKA: Is choosing paedophilia for you a responsible choice for the individuals?
RALPH UNDERWAGER: Certainly it is responsible. What I have been struck by as I have come to know more about and understand people who choose paedophilia is that they let themselves be too much defined by other people. That is usually an essentially negative definition. Paedophiles spend a lot of time and energy defending their choice. I don’t think that a paedophile needs to do that. Paedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love.

"the thing that disgusts me"
This section is where Mesner uses personal attacks and insults again to discredit another person. He does not admit that he picks a few quotes and facts out of context to discredit others. He apparently refuses to look at new information, facts and ideas. He keeps discussing "Michelle Remembers" yet several of those sources attacking the book draw information from her family and a few neighbors. Of course her father would deny what happened. Yet this is considered "evidence" it did not happen. Of course a neighbor may not know what is going on in Michelle's house. Yet this is "evidence" the events did not occur.

Anonymous said...

part two

"ignore the facts of the debunking"
Mesner ignores all opinions contrary to his own opinions, even when scientific evidence is clearly against him, like the fact that almost the entire field believes that DID exists and is caused by extreme trauma.

"Extreme Abuse Survivor's Survey"

The Extreme Abuse Survey (EAS) was a good initial survey to develop a data base for further study. There is no reason to lie about being a survivor of Extreme Abuse. Because of the attacks on Extreme Abuse survivors, many do not tell others about these crimes. So the high numbers of these accounts are significant. Plus there is legal and scientific evidence these crimes exist, further backing the veracity of these numbers. Those wanting to see the actual survey can go to

What Bob/Doug does not conveniently mention about the Jedi census phenomenon is that people did this because Star Wars fans wanted Jedi to be recognized as an official religion by the government, or to protest the question of religion on the census form. This is quite different than the EAS and shows the two phenomenon are unrelated.

"...other CIA mind control claimants, alleging they were also ritual abuse victims, but ZERO of those persons have even a scrap of documentation."

Not true. Several of the books written by these victims have either corroborating family members or government documents backing their accounts.

"Bob" discussed the belief that ritual abuse survivors are connected to "militia sympathizers." Yet only a small minority of ritual abuse survivors are connected to these groups. Just because a person is on an e-mail list whose list moderator has a certain belief system, does not mean the list member has that belief system or agrees with the moderator.

"Bob" uses the propaganda technique of Transfer, an attempt to make the subject view a certain group in the same way as they view another group.

Bob/Mesner use the propaganda technique of Name Calling, the use of derogatory language or words that carry a negative connotation when describing their opponent. This technique is used to arouse prejudice in the reader by labeling the target with something that the reader dislikes.

"serves as an illustrative case to show how recovered memories can be demonstrably false and fabricated delusions (thus calling into question the wisdom of Recovered Memory Therapy)"
This exposes part of Mesner's agenda. Attack ritual abuse survivors to discredit the entire field of recovered memory. Of course, recovered memory is a proven phenomenon.

101 Corroborated Cases of Recovered Memory

Read the excerpt"

One should read the entire book before judging it. Her therapist was extremely careful NOT to lead her in her recovery of what happened.

One can form their own opinions about her book by going to her webpage or by reading her book.

In essence, Bob/Mesner take an extremely one sided view of the entire field, adding name calling, insults and personal attacks to "back up" their opinions. Readers should not be swayed by any of this and should read their sources and then other sources to form their own opinions on these topics.

The most important thing is to separate out the feelings that may be caused by the name calling from the actual ideas being discussed. Name calling and insults are used to blind the reader to not think critically about what is being discussed. When a reader sees repeated name calling and insults, the reader should question the motives of the writer and only listen to the actual arguments given, making their own decisions on the topic.

Doug Mesner said...

""dis-owned SMART as an irrational organisation"
No one ever stated this. This is a total misinterpretation of what occurred. A link was deleted and an organization stated they are not connected to another one. The above statement is a misinterpretation used to falsely discredit another group."
This is incredible to me. The whole incident came about from MY interaction with the ISSTD, which I've not even published yet. The full interview is on audio. Believe me, Neil, when the ISSTD says SMART has nothing to do with them, they are not saying that they are not financially intertwined or otherwise legally enmeshed, they are saying that SMART has nothing to do with the legitimate study of Dissociation and Trauma. They specifically say it is unfair to categorize SMART anywhere with the ISSTD, and that the link leading web-viewers to SMART was a regrettable mistake. SMART was dis-owned as an irrational group of conspiracy theorists that propagate delusion by the ISSTD, Neil. That is how it is to be written, because that's the fact of the matter. Call the ISSTD. See what they tell you.
"The conference was not accurately reported on. The so-called report picks and chooses a few statements from speakers at the conference"
So what's the complaint here? That I didn't put full transcripts verbatim? Do you deny the "electromagnetic wave" blocking hats? Do you deny the statements that WERE in the report? Anybody can read the presentations of Labrier and Royal on your website to see my reporting was accurate. Yet my reporting them bothers you. Why? Is it because you recognise they sound utterly deranged?
"put words in people's mouths and took statements out of context"
And again, you say this without specifying anything, demonstrating once more that you're of the mind that if you repeat it enough, it must be true.
"List your educational and clinical experience."
I'm not really sure what you think you're getting out of this. I guess it's the last refuge of a guy who has no intellectual defense. It is, unfortunately, a matter of record that my academic credentials are solid - but, as I've said before, say I was a high school drop-out. So what? What then? we see that McHugh being head of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins isn't enough for you because he didn't engage in "long-term" treatment of DID. He found DID cases DID NOT NEED long-term treatment for the disorder, so how does it make sense to criticise that he did not provide a treatment he found they did not need? Also, I'm not Bob - but what if I was? What are you trying to prove? That I'm silly enough to come on here as two different people? what would I do that for? What's your point? How does that defend the non-existent credibility of SMART?

"like the fact that almost the entire field believes that DID exists and is caused by extreme trauma."
"Of course, recovered memory is a proven phenomenon."

Doug Mesner said...

"like the fact that almost the entire field believes that DID exists and is caused by extreme trauma."
"Of course, recovered memory is a proven phenomenon."
These statements are just plainly false, and demonstrate that Brick has not read the literature beyond around 1992. Choose one article, Brick. CHOOSE ONE that proves the phenomena. Provide a link. None exists.

Doug Mesner said...

"The most important thing is to separate out the feelings that may be caused by the name calling from the actual ideas being discussed."
I agree, Brick. So, what is actually being discussed here? Why do you refuse to expound upon your position if you believe it to be so solid? Why have you entirely ignored our very direct requests that you give some details regarding your narrative in which you claim to have been a mind-controlled assassin for the Freemasons? Do you still stand by that story? Do you still maintain that MK-ULTRA is training psychic, remote-viewing assassins? Why do you pretend that this is about clinical issues and scientific disagreements that you are not qualified to speak about, that the ISSTD says your organisation has nothing to do with, and that your own boss clearly states has nothing to do with your day job?
And I find it funny Neil, how in every post you manage to address what you see as a "personal attack" that's strictly ad hominem, but entirely ignore any criticisisms of fact.

Doug Mesner said...

"Are you afraid to say who you really are? People from the conference state "Mesner" is an alias. Tell us your name."
This is hilarious coming, as it does, from "Anonymous". Brick, if you think you know something, go ahead and out with it. Now's your big chance. Also, you keep saying I reported select quotes from last year's SMART delusion-fest out of context, yet you continuously fail to put them INTO context for us. In short, you make no argument at all, digress into meaningless territory, and develop new conspiracy theories that don't even have any sensible explanatory function (such as Bob and I are the same guy). To put you on track here, Neil, let's say for argument's sake that I believe DID is legitimate and recovered memories can be valid. I don't believe that, but let's say I do, because you're not qualified to argue that point with me, and I've been confronting and consulting actual known experts in the debate for the past year. So, DID aside - conceded for the sake of argument - you can no longer ignore the direct questions related to the conspiracy theories you actively promote, yet try to hide away from any critical scrutiny. Do you stand by your tale of masonic brain-washing, or don't you? Organised satanic cults that have infiltrated law enforcement and government? Do tell, Neil, we're all waiting...

socrates said...

I guess it can be assumed anonymous is Neil Brick. He hasn't denied it.

Neil, Blogger is owned by google. If someone posts certain words, entries are more likely to become visible in search engine results.

Bob and myself are somewhat from the same milieu. I don't know how he found this blog. Doug didn't show up here until after I had covered his expose on your mk-ultra sleeper assassin, satanic ritual abuse, conference schtick. Maybe I emailed him, and that's how he found DFQ2. II can't remember. Chicken meet egg.

Anyway, the point is Doug is not Bob. I made a lot of entries over a month or two on this topic. It's how you got here, isn't it? Because I blogged your name? Why can't you answer simple questions? Are you Neil Brick? When and how did you recover your memories? Give us details. Who was your therapist? Do you refer people to therapists? Do you get paid for doing so?

I'm smelling lawsuits. That's basically why I blogged on this. I want victims to sue the therapists and people like you, if you are some form of middle man.

Are you autistic? You're obviously insane. If you want help, it can be provided. If you're just here to libel a real person like Doug and spam your garbage links, I'd rather you leave. Meet us half way, please. Are you Neil Brick? What's your dog in the hunt? How about some direct interaction here? No one's deleted your links or posts or anything. I'm just saying this is getting pretty lame. Doug and Bob are swatting you like a mosquito troll. You need a real therapist, Neil. I'll help you get out of this mess, brother. You could sue those therapists for millions and break this story wide open. You could save other deluded, mentally ill people by helping to put a stop to this madness. Or maybe you're a run of the mill con artist?

Give us sleeper assassin details. Otherwise, what's the point of this? It's obvious you can't answer simple questions. Jackie McGauley could do that. What's your problem, dude? Who was your therapist? Tell us about your recovered memories. Otherwise, who really cares about what you're writing?

Doug Mesner said...

"You need a real therapist, Neil. I'll help you get out of this mess, brother."
I agree. If you were to come back to reality, I think we here would be the first ones to welcome you back with open arms, Neil. You have to know these tales of masonic mind-control and satanic abuse are disprovable. Why else would you refuse to talk about them? Who would that help if these stories were actually true? Are you here to defend SMART from my report? Then why is your defense almost strictly about DID while you ignore or disown the areas that directly deal with the actual events and claims of the conference? Of course I picked only certain quotes. It wasn't meant to be a full transcript of proceedings. How are those quotes mis-representative? What WAS the SMART conference about then? Seriously, Neil, what you're doing is unhealthy for you and those around you. You're hurting people, Neil. You're hurting people, and you could be helping them.

Doug Mesner said...

(it would be nice, given Neil Brick's hang-up on "clinical experience" to the point where even Johns Hopkins head of psychiatry was insufficient, if he would specify directly if he works with DID in a clinical environment. it's a question i'm certain he will not answer.)

socrates said...

Minstrel Boy

Jeff Wells: I've long thought about the Franklin/Spence scandals, that if this shit were real, then we needed to totally rethink our assumptions about the world. Even those of us who are already accused of wearing the foil. If this is the way the world works, if this is the enemy, then we're really up against it. And we oughta get metaphysical on their luciferian asses.

Andy Stephenson: Explain how we get metaphyscical on them?

Jeff Wells: I think we need to find our own ways, probably by finding our own spirit, maybe learning from our own traditions, or those we adopt.

I know I risk sound like a raving religious loony to say it, but if we don't admit there's a spiritual battle going on, then I think we've already lost.

Look at the stories of mind control survivors - the Satanic ritual abuse perpetrated covertly by goverment agencies. Look at the case right now in Toledo, a priest on trial for murdering a nun on an altar, and a circle of priests ritually abusing children for decades. It's Crowley-inspired Thelemic sex magick. And I think it's the secret state religion.

Neil Brick clearly doesn't have a monopoly on mental illness. Thanks to Bob's finds on Jeff Wells religious background, it's safe to say he is a proverbial useful idiot. Andy was probably a combo of grifter and conspiracy theory freak.

socrates said...

I think the idea of recovered memories is the stuff of Hollywood and fiction. It probably formed after Freud became an intellectual player with his psychoanalysis schtick.

I see there isn't much belief left in the idea of split personalities. I never really believed in that one too much.

The cult which has formed around these kinds of beliefs have tenuous ties. There are those awkwardly entertaining conferences. There are the Jeff Wells and Andy Stephensons of the world. There are those 16 therapists or how ever many there are making a buck off of the promotion of delusions. There's Neil Brick. I'd have to meet the dude, speak with his family, and learn what his history is before making a decision whether I think he is mentally ill or a confidence man.

I do believe there are pathological liars. He might be one of those. He could be the poor man's Brett Kimberlin. He might be laqughing his way to the bank. There are just too many possiblities, that to discuss neil Brick is to wander into the realm of speculation. That he doesn't answer the easy questions makes me think he could be a con artist.

bob said...

I said: "The process of debunking and exposing SRA frauds was going on for years before there was any FMSF."

Anonymous said:
"Not really. The FMSF was founded in the early 1990's. During the 1980's there were a few cases that were debated.
One of the major figures in the 1980's "debunking and exposing" that later was a co-founder of the FMS was Ralph Underwager".

Utter nonsense. Ignorance and attempted slander. FMSF was founded in March of 1992.
Earlier debunking efforts were undertaken by members of religious minority anti-defamation organizations, NOT by organizations representing persons accused of child abuse.

One example would be the Wiccan Information Network, formalized in 1987-1988. Between 1987 and 1992 WIN was involved in exposing & debunking the witchhunting activity of dozens of persons and organizations. You can find much of their archived materials here:
"witchhunts" section
Underwager was never a member of WIN and WIN never had any interactions with Underwager.

Stephen Kent knows all about these earlier anti-defamation networks - why don't you ask him about them? Professor Kent and I were both involved in advising the same Law Enforcement agency on this topic, in late 1980's and early 1990's, by the way - he as a professional and I as an unpaid volunteer.

Anonymous said:
"What Bob/Doug does not conveniently mention about the Jedi census phenomenon is that people did this because Star Wars fans wanted Jedi to be recognized as an official religion by the government, or to protest the question of religion on the census form. This is quite different than the EAS and shows the two phenomenon are unrelated".

No, I chose the Jedi example because the motivations for lying in surveys are IDENTICAL. Ritual abuse claimant cultists are desperate to have ritual abuse officially recognised by governments and government agencies, and thereby become concensus reality. The authors of the EAS survey even say this is their motivation:

"...we trust that the atrocities reported by survey participants will not only be validating to individual survivors but will also become socially validated reality".

Anonymous said...

Could you link to the "witchhunts" section because I don't see any link on the page for that.


bob said...


Hey Socrates - great quotes from Jeff Wells, thanks! However else he may see himself, he's still a paranoid fundamentalist waging "spiritual warfare" against satanic conspiracies that don't exist.

socrates said...

The blogger software was starting to get glitchy, so I converted the Molson at the top to a link. That seems to have fixed the problem on my end. Blogger took away the abilty to limit comments to 100 and nest the rest.

Bob, it's incredible how much could be posted and written about Wells' and others' posts at DU. To this day I do not understand the abuse he gave me. He shouldn't have listened to that scumbag named Arcadia Ego. Ego had my ip from a previous forum. I was banned from RI before being able to make one post. Why on Earth would Wells allow that guy to destroy his forum?

That Arcadia Ego guy wrote some of the meanest stuff imagineable about myself. One time he made a comment about my Mom, who had died in 2006. His problem with me was I didn't fall into line with his crazy ideas about a changed chemistry in the sky leading to growth in persistent contrails. He is one of the most sadistic people on the net. His claim to fame is giving Marylin Manson a tattoo. Odd that Jeff Wells' best friend on the internet is in with "Satan" admirers. I'm not saying Manson is this or that. It's just strange is all. Oh well, at this point I can see that some people are just outright mad and not necessarily proverbial disinfo agents.

I appreciate very much your sharing of that info about Wells' education. I don't want to have theories that make me look like a paranoid fool. The thing was, it just wasn't Wells' connection to Stephenson that had me wondering. He can be directly linked to someone named Tinoire and thus to Michael Rivero. Rivero definitely reeks of being paid disinfo, as does Tinoire. I've covered that elsewhere. Tinoire says she worked for military intelligence. Rivero worked for McDonnell Douglas. Those are damning ties that were exclusive finds by myself.

My cybersleuthing days are over. I'm satisfied with what I covered, and what I came up with.

socrates said...

I found another thread here where the comments are nested after 200 of them. I can't locate the option in the admin panel, so I basically don't know what's up with that. Maybe because the Molson image was oversized, that was the problem. Sorry for the off-topic stuff, and thank you for your fine contributions. The offer for you to blog here still stands, and you know how to get added on if you change your mind. This would be a good outlet for you to keep on this story, if you so desire. Plus anything else you're interested in, you could write about it. I trust you. I'm so tired of blogging. I want to open this place up to nice, rational people like yourself who might feel like sharing insights on this crazy world.

bob said...

I did the "join" thing on your other forum, but only got the auto-reply so far.

socrates said...

Nice, thanks Bob. I'll check that out before I log off.

socrates said...

I also see that I can edit posts other bloggers write. I'd never change any of them, but I'd be able to add in images, if you want them. Take it easy.

socrates said...

I just invited you to blog here with the email address you provided at the forum. If that's not the one you use for your blogger username, I'll need the other one. If you need anything, any help with html, I can explain those in a private message. You should be ready to go. Your ideas are profound. I am humbled that you have considered blogging at DFQ2 and don't take it for granted. Take care.

bob said...

That's not the email addy I use for "Bob" - how can I send you the other one? Can I reply to "no-reply@"?

socrates said...

You can private message your blogger email address through that forum.